Season 2, Episode 9: Being a Good Follower

Rosanna 0:00
Hello, and welcome to season two, episode nine of the relentless pursuit podcast. This episode is called being a good follower.

Jordan 0:22
Yeah, and I like this topic because we often talk about being a good leader. And there’s so much emphasis on leadership, where are you leading? Are you developing your leadership skills, the leader in you. And even from a young age, there’s this emphasis on taking charge. And it struck me a number of years ago that we, even if we are a leader in life, we tend to spend the majority of our time as a follower in one way or another. So we should be thinking about this as well. It’s not bad to talk about leadership and assuming those roles. But I think we need to first be cognizant of how we can be a conscientious follower, what that means, where it’s applicable in our life, and making sure we’re doing a good job with that, because that matters, who we’re following and how we’re following them.

Rosanna 1:15
Yeah, you know, this whole idea of being a good follower has to do with this term called followership. And I think that what came to mind when you were talking about like, what it means or what it doesn’t mean to be good follower, it remind me of the Princess Bride. I do not think it means what you think it means. It’s like we have this like negative or negative connotation,

Jordan 1:34
Xeni accent there. Okay. Okay, so followership, so people don’t, when we think of being a follower, there’s a connotation, like, there’s a real,

Rosanna 1:43
right, like, you want to be the leader, you want to always be in charge and driving the bus. But like, there’s only one leader and it’s what’s interesting is, is that it’s the followers that do the work, like a leader leads the followers, so like, maybe gives, like vision or direction for it. But it’s those people from within that oftentimes, like build and create things that a leader would maybe not have come up with on their own or would have not developed, but it’s like those followers that are behind them that then see opportunity. It’s like we think a leader as this, like submissive subordinate people who are like subpar,

Jordan 2:19
no, you said he’s a leader. So you think a follower, someone who’s submissive,

Rosanna 2:22
right like that. We think I’m sorry, I misspoke, that followers are these submissive, subordinate people who are subpar. And that’s why you’re a follower, because you’re not a leader. Because the leaders are the ones that have it together, the leaders are the ones, you know, up front. And so if you’re not that, then you must be subpar until you’re just a follower. And so I think this episode is meant to really talk about how like followers are crucial and super important and like looking at our roles as followers, and what are some of the benefits of being a follower, right? Because it’s great to be a leader, right? Like you’re the leader of our family.

Jordan 2:55
Right? Okay. I think of it more as a, quote, leadership,

Rosanna 2:59
assistant to the vice presidents Yes, or, you know, whatever. But like, you know what, I mean, that’s like that we lead that. But there are some benefits. It’s like when I, when I’m not the leader, that I just get to go in and like, use my talents or skills without having to be in charge, right?

Jordan 3:13
Yeah, I think a lot of times, there’s this phrase, like, I want to be the guy, I want to be the one that people see on that pedestal, I want to be the one that people go to for an answer for decision or for help. And we associate that with leadership. And so and there’s a lot of good that is done through effective leaders. But I think that nobody, nobody says I don’t want to be the I don’t want to be I don’t want to be, you know, celebrated and invisible in a way that people admire, as we often associate with leadership. So then, yeah, we kind of poopoo that idea of being a follower.

Rosanna 3:47
But even in if you look at like the systems and organizations and communities you’re a part of, you’re not always the leader, but a lot of times it can’t. And if you are, if you have a good leader, they recognize good followers, and they celebrate those people. So sometimes we feel like we have to have the spotlight on us. And that has to be all about us when in fact, if you’re a good leader, it’s all about your followers.

Jordan 4:09
Yeah. I, it reminds me, I think it was rush limbaugh, who used to on on Twitter, he would sort of symbolically not be following anyone. So he had millions of people who would follow him and then you kind of look at who does he follow. And it’s zero because he you know, he is his own leader, in a sense. And I think that was kind of symbolic for him. There’s just like, it makes me think there was this account. It was basically like someone pretending to be God, the tweet of God, and He followed one person, and it was Justin Bieber. That was really funny. But yeah, we I think many of us think in that way where I’d shoot I’m not a follower. I’m going to be the leader. I’m gonna be out front of everybody else. Because we associate that with prestige. So in this conversation, that’s what I want to break down is like kind of looking at why do we have that association with leadership and with followership? And what are some of the ways we can be much more practical and realistic about our role as a follower and doing that? Well?

Rosanna 5:17
Well, and I think we addressed this in our last episode on self education we were talking about, like our careers, our culture, our society is changing. So the idea that we introduced with self education is that we continue, we need to continuously be growing and changing in a self directed manner to like continue to move forward. And I think this idea of following being a good follower and followership is also now getting some more research and some different perspectives on it, where it’s not this, you’re a follower, and you’re subpar, and you’re subordinate, and you need to be told what to do. But the definition of followership, if I can share it is it’s the willingness to cooperate, the willingness to work together toward the accomplishment of a mission or goal. It’s an essential and effective building block to build community systems and organization. So that’s not a passive role. That is something that requires buy in and requires effort. And so to be a follower is actually a very powerful thing. Yeah, if you’re utilizing it in the way of thinking about building something together,

Jordan 6:17
right. And I think you’re building yourself in the process, too.

Rosanna 6:20
Yes, I think that’s a really big part of it.

Jordan 6:23
All right. So you’re ready to go back and forth with some questions? Sure. I have several. And the more I thought about this, the longer my list became. So we’re starting to address a few of the things that I was interested in. But what is on your list?

Rosanna 6:37
So I think, obviously, this is probably the underlying question of this episode is why should you want to be a good follower? Why should you want to be a good follower? Why isn’t that you need to take the reins and be the leader? Hmm. I mean, I have thoughts.

Jordan 6:51
I have thoughts. Yeah, I think there’s there’s a range of reasons. One is I think it’s inevitable and you think about maybe maybe even before that, we’ll look at like, what are the things or people that could be followed, and we have leaders kind of built in to our life into our society, we have bosses, we have political leaders, right,

Rosanna 7:12
right at the national and local

Jordan 7:14
level. And we have, I would consider, like, some ways we follow, like, I would say, companies or brands in some way, or we can follow people who are maybe we’ll call them thought leaders, but they’re, you know, there’s this whole array of people who are like successful in their field and, and articulate or inspiring, and we could consider ourselves kind of a voluntary follower of those brands or of those people as well. So I think each of though, I think, to answer your question, you almost need to consider Well, what particular person or entity Am I following? And then we can get to Well, why it’s important to be a good follower in those areas.

Rosanna 7:56
Yeah, I mean, it kind of delves back into the conversation we had about like social media, and who we follow and why. And we follow some of those brands or some of those influencers, like whether it’s a thought influencer, or you know, a celebrity or something like that. And I think the whole point of being a follower, unless you’re not following, just to be nosy or combative, right? Like, there are some people who follow in that way. When we’re a follower, we derive benefits from someone from someone or something else. Like there’s this psychological payback that we get from them. When we follow them, we like we are fed, or we are like replenished in some way. Because, like their thoughts or their insights, or whatever it is that they’re sharing that we’re following is like we take and we digest, and it ultimately makes us better. Or gets us to stop and think like, those are when we follow the right things and the right people or the right brands, like that’s the potential there. And so if I follow you, and you post something that’s like thought, thought provoking, and it pulls at my heart, and it gets me to, like question, a belief that I have, or inspires me to want to be or do something better, like, that’s a great reason to follow someone is because they help you to get better. They help you to process where you are on this idea or topic or notion, and they’re pushing you forward.

Jordan 9:16
Yeah. So I would think of a leader even more, I don’t say tangibly, but like just more like interwoven with our life, like because we could follow people very distantly on like social media or blogs, things and they don’t even know we exist. But I’m thinking more collaboratively like, some leaders that I would very gladly follow are the ones who I would say can see clearly, there’s a particular objective or there’s a vision that they have, and they can see that and also say like they can, they can see the chessboard and have greater degree of insight than your average person in that particular regard. And so you kind of need that leader in that role. To to see the big picture to understand the game plan and to to move the pieces in a sense. And then we understand our role within that is to recognize this is the vision, this is the vision that I believe in and can get behind. And if I play my role out, according to you know, the bigger picture, then that’s going to help whatever this objective is become realized with the partnership of everyone else who’s in that.

Rosanna 10:26
Okay, do you have like a more specific example,

Jordan 10:30
I would just I think the most practical one would be at work, let’s say if you have a good boss, and I know many of us spend a great deal of time maybe not feeling as positively towards our bosses. But I think I’ve had the privilege of working with people that I respect and that I admire, because they do recognize that that, you know, when there’s a certain circumstance that arises, there is this ability to perceive angles that I would have overlooked. Or there’s a kind of a bigger scope that informs the decision making, that I am not privy to, or not, or just not as talented at perceiving. And so that’s why that person is in that position. So then I understand like, Okay, if this is my directive, then if I play this out, I can trust this leader, in that we are going to accomplish the objectives that we’ve set out to do.

Rosanna 11:28
You nailed my thought my like, second question to that there was kind of like my number two as a follow up, it’s like, Why do or don’t you follow certain people? And I think you just answer that question. In regards to it’s not just likability, right? Because we can like a lot of people and follow them, like, regardless if we’re doing it in person, or within our like community, or an organization that we’re a part of, you know, social media, but it’s not just likeability, because we can like a lot of people and like, follow them. But I think what you’re alluding to, and the key word, there is trust, it’s this person has a certain perspective, or built something that you have learned to trust, and admire and respect. And so part of wanting to emulate that, or be on board with that vision that drives you forward as well. Because we can like, Oh, I can like Justin Bieber, I can follow him. Right?

Jordan 12:19
But he’s just his leadership capacity. And you’re like, well,

Rosanna 12:22
correct. So when we talk about, like, who we follow, and what kind of follower we want to be, or like, when we, when some people like fixate on wanting people to follow them, you know, it’s not just about likability, it’s about trust in so sometimes, you really have to reevaluate, like, who you want to follow and why. Or maybe reevaluate, like, I don’t need a million followers on Instagram, like maybe the hundred and 20 that I have, are the ones that believe in me believe in my vision, and are coming along with me. And so like, that should be inspiring to know that people trust and respect you. And it’s not just a like a follow for a follow kind of thing.

Jordan 13:02
Yeah, that’s a lot of what, like what Seth Godin writes about is it’s not about the quantity, but it’s about the quality of your followers. And I would also say like, as a follower, it’s not about, you know, how popular or public your leader is your brand is, but it’s about the quality that you derive from that. Okay,

Rosanna 13:26
do you have any questions for me?

Jordan 13:27
Or Yeah, you want to join? I should just thought of a few more. Okay. I want to back up just a little bit, because at the start of the episode, we talked about this stigma being placed on the word follower. And I think there’s other ways that we do phrase it that are maybe a little bit more palatable for our average consciousness. Like we think of ourselves as maybe a student of, or we think about who we’re inspired by. But when we talk about being a follower, we don’t like that. So why, why does that stigma exist? I mean, we are natural followers in so many areas of our lives. But why does no one like to brand themselves as a follower?

Rosanna 14:12
I think that’ll do. I think that has to do with like social media. I really, like I really do like, kind of like that. Everybody wants to be in the spotlight. And no one wants to be in the back. Like no one wants to put baby in the corner, like Nobody puts baby in the corner.

Jordan 14:26
I’m important and therefore, if I’m, if using the term follower, it’s kind of declaring that I’m not as important as

Rosanna 14:34
somebody else. And there are people who, like refuse to follow certain people or refuse to follow anybody, like, you know, rush limbaugh, I’m not a follower. I’m a leader, therefore, I will not follow anybody else. Because what they have to say isn’t important. And so I think it’s the stigma of, if I admit that somebody else is as important or more important than me, then I’m not important. And I think part of this conversation is like knowing your role and your role is different in a variety of circumstances and situations like your role in relation is different based on your relationships with different people. So you can’t always be the number one to everybody. You know, like, you’re my number one, but you’re not, you’re not number one to, you know, your boss, you’re like number seven, right? Like, and that’s okay. And so but that is, that’s like your own understanding of like, I don’t have to be number one to this person. Like, it’s important that I’m number one to the person who’s number one to me, like, so. But it’s okay to like, have varying roles and relationships within those roles. And it doesn’t make me any less valuable, but you’ll lead in the position you need to lead in and you can follow in another position. And that’s just a part of your makeup and who you are. Yeah,

Jordan 15:43
yeah. And I think it’s, it’s not only okay to be a follower, but it is, like I said, it’s, it’s natural, like, we automatically are in a lot of different domains. But there’s, it’s also I would say, encouraged as well, maybe a stronger word would be disciple, right? When you think of like someone who you have like this, sort of like this leader, this mentor, and you really want to kind of study their ways and master whatever their craft is, you can say like, I’m a disciple of this person. And that is like a kind of declaring your devotion to them in almost a religious sense as well. And but we don’t use terms like that very often. So I think

Rosanna 16:23
we use mentor, right? Like, oh, I have a mentor. But in that situation, like you have one person leading the other. Yeah. And if one person is leading, that means the other person is following. But I think sometimes we feel like if we’re a follower, that means like, we’ll always be a follower. Sometimes when you’re a good follower, who is at the top of their game, under somebody else, a follower also can become a leader. And it doesn’t mean that you’re the owner of the company, or you’re the, you know what I mean, like you lead from within, and your role becomes important to like established leadership, because then you help make them better. So everyone continues to grow.

Jordan 17:03
Yeah, I want to talk about that more, too. But you remind me of a video. I don’t know if you ever saw this, but we’ll post a link to it. In our show notes. There is this video that was put out by Derek Severs long time ago. And it’s like this six minute clip of people dancing at a park. So there’s some music playing. And it starts out with just one really weird looking guy dancing to the music. And he there’s Derek walks through the what happens, and there is this guy’s completely by himself. But then what happens, there’s one other person who almost ingest starts dancing next to that person as well. And he calls that person, the first follower, and that first follower plays a significant role, because what happens then then two or three more people join, and over the course of six minutes, like eventually the entire park, what looks like hundreds of people are dancing. And he points out that the leader by himself is a lone nut with whatever his vision of the world needs to be. And it doesn’t really have momentum until you have followers. And in fact, one of the things that a good follower does is it becomes he or she becomes a leader to the other followers, because then they look at the follower for how to follow the leader. Yeah,

Rosanna 18:22
I think that’s a great explanation. I think that’s a great explanation. When somebody else sees somebody that they know or admire or have some trust in buying into something that somebody else is doing. theirs, they there is a sense of like trust and acceptance, and like letting your guard down to be a part of it like, well,

if Jordans doing this, I know Jordan, I respect her and I liked Jordan and he likes this. Oh, like maybe I should give it a look. And so yeah, you’re it’s like that, not just likability. It’s like trust, to like, join and follow. And to buy into something I think buying is huge.

Jordan 19:00
Yeah. Right. So let me ask you this question. Just as a follow up to this. Is this is what it makes me think is, Is there ever a bad reason to follow? Oh, it

Rosanna 19:12
makes me think of being a kid. The scenario our parents have said this off, if your friends were going to jump off the bridge, would you jump, you know, like that scenario of like, your friends are, you know, starting to I remember this, like in junior high school, like smoke or drink, like, just because you know, so and so does it, does that mean that you’re going to do it? And well, no, I wouldn’t do that. Because that’s not beneficial to me, that puts me in harm’s way. But then there’s that pressure to do it. So it’s, do you stay true to your morals and values? And follow something everybody else is following because they’re following it? Or do you choose to go another way?

Jordan 19:42
Yeah, and that’s what I was thinking about too. And it actually comes up in that video that I was referencing, because eventually there’s often a certain point where there’s a social pressure, almost just by like numerically there becomes this pressure and then you become the lone nut. If you are Not the one following what the rest of the group does. And that that’s one thing that I think is important for us to consider too is like, what are what are your reasons or your motives for getting behind a certain person or certain issue? Or even a company? You know? Is it to fit in? And just to, like, stay within the confines of the tribe that you see yourself in? Or is there do you genuinely see legitimacy behind what you’re doing?

Rosanna 20:30
And that reminds me of, I mean, this is like, the funniest reference to it. But if you’re on Netflix, and you’re watching the home edit, currently, you know, this phenomenon that is sweeping and clear, and Joanna, and they’re doing amazing things, and I love to watch it, right. But like, you see people, you know, like, following them, and I follow them, and I see their stuff, but I have not yet you know, spent $4,000 at the container store to buy clear containers to like, redo all of my cabinets, their system. Yeah, and mostly because like, I’m pretty neat and organized. And so I already have a system kind of like that established, would I love to spend more money to organize it and make it look just like it does on TV? Sure, but like, I’ve kind of processed that in my mind of, well, like, it’s cool. And I can follow it in terms of like, being more organized, or like setting up spaces like to know and to learn and to grow. But I also don’t feel like I have to, to be a follower, I have to completely subscribe to the method that they’re using to the tee, you know, and by by all of their containers and fill my cabinets with them in order to be organized. Like I can do it in my own way. So I can learn something from them digest it still be a follower, but not have to, like be a convert to doing everything their way. Yeah. So like, I’m letting them teach me and I’m growing through that, you know, it’s not, you know, this, you know,

Jordan 21:42
and it is hard raw, mindless entertainment.

Rosanna 21:45
And it is, you know, and they’re entertaining but right I can be a follower of without letting that completely overtake like who I am or even the my own system that I’ve built. So learning and growing through that.

Jordan 21:57
And what else again?

Rosanna 22:02
What motivates a follower to be engaged. So let’s talk about like engagement with followers because you can follow someone. And like, again, in the real world, in real life, or like on social media, like you can follow them, but I think there’s, you can follow someone because of likability. But then I think there’s a moment of engagement, like you’re at work, right? And you work for a team or a boss or an organization. And so like you’re a follower of them, because they’re over you and they lead. So you can just go to work and do your job. Same thing. You could be a follower on social media, and you could follow someone. But I think what we’re talking about with follow followership, it’s not just following. It’s not just like ability, but there’s this like notion of engagement. Yeah. And how that plays in or how that changes what followership really means, as opposed to being this subpar drone being pulled along by somebody else.

Jordan 22:54
Yeah. I think that it has couple answers that come to mind. The first one is that it’s this idea of, like, something you can get behind, there’s some idea, or innovation, or vision that when you follow you become a part of it. So I think of Apple, for example, Apple’s kind of like famous as a company for having this like subculture of devotees who just pretty much do all the selling for them. Right? And well, how did they get that? Let’s because Apple’s marketing, and its branding is all about how it is innovative, how it is different, especially, you know, going back decades of their marketing was about how you kind of break the mold and become this individual who can express themselves and get away from the machine of society by purchasing their products. And people really bought into that because both the what Apple was was doing its mentality was kind of revolutionary in that sense, trying to find the molds that could be broken to take on something new. So people who identified with that were able to become the, you know, the adopters and the press the lights of that as a brand. And so I think that’s one of the first thing that comes to mind is just having something that you really feel excited about, that you identify with, and you can get behind.

Rosanna 24:18
So is it a bit noxious, if you are a follower of a brand, or a company or a community to I mean, they say like, the best thing you can do for like a business is to like share or like posts because it costs nothing to you. It costs a little bit of time, but when you promote their business or share your experience with your business, what you’re doing is as a follower, you’re sharing that business with helps build that business. And so that’s what a good follower would do. Like if you actually buy in, if this is actually important to you, like wouldn’t you promote this, this brand or this company or this business to help them grow and thrive?

Jordan 24:58
Yeah, and I don’t think it’s up Maybe it’s to someone else who doesn’t care about that particular brand or industry or whatever. But it is, I think it is obviously helpful to whatever you’re promoting. But, you know, I think we should be cautious with that too, in a sense, where we, we really need to believe in it, it needs to offer like, some genuine value to ourselves, or, or like the product or like what we’re bringing in so that we don’t seem illegitimate and what we’re sharing with others, if you just promote everything, then people will eventually tune you out.

Rosanna 25:37
So even as a follower are being selective about who or what you follow, and how you’re promoting that,

Jordan 25:43
well, how much can you really follow anyway? Like, kind of like conscientiously like being like, devoted to and in tune with,

Rosanna 25:49
there’s probably only two or like, if you’re, if you’re being honest, right, like two or three things, right? Like in my life, what would I say I probably,

Jordan 25:57
but let’s say like, let’s say I bought a hacky sack, and I it’s my favorite hacky sack, I love it to death, so much I do all my hacky sacking with it does, that doesn’t make me a follower of that, it just means that I bought a product that I really enjoy. So I think that there’s a difference between like getting senior, some deriving some, like consumeristic value from something, and then genuinely being a follower of a person or a brand.

Rosanna 26:22
Gotcha. You have any any other questions you want to add? To the conversation?

Jordan 26:27
Yeah, quite a few. We don’t have time for all of them.

Rosanna 26:30
No, we won’t, because we’re getting close to that,

Jordan 26:33
that wrap almost time for takeaways. Okay, let me see. These are too many essential ones here. Right? So I’ll put them together. First, how do you identify someone or something to follow? And what kind of mindset should you bring as a follower to them?

Rosanna 26:54
I think that one’s that one’s a little hard.

Jordan 26:57
Or do we just automatically follow things, and it’s not a matter of choosing is just a matter of recognizing.

Rosanna 27:03
So I used to be really like selective in terms of like, I’m talking about social media here. Like who I followed and who I would let follow me because people would like request to follow me and I would always just say, No, no, I’m like, I haven’t talked to in 20 years, you want to like creep on my, my, my book face and you want to, you know, see what’s going on? Or like, what do you look like now? or What does your family look like? And I didn’t feel the need to like have these followers to follow me like if it was an empty follower. And then I would also be leery about like adding other things. And then in the last few years, I’ve opened it up a lot more, because I’m like, Well, I want people to be able to, like have access to know, like, what my business is, and to see what it is. And like, because that helps me like promote my business and, you know, starting business pages for people to follow me for like my thoughts and my expertise. And so I feel like it’s like a double edged sword where it’s like, you want to be open to let people follow you and to let people see but at the same time, like following for the sake of following does nothing unless people are engaged in what it is that you’re promoting, or what it is you’re building or what it is you want them to follow.

Jordan 28:07
Yeah. One of the things that I think about too, and you brought this up a little bit earlier was like, oh, whoever you’re following, I would say like having a dose of, of skepticism or independence in your following of them too. And I think it serves your leader and it serves you really well, because it really bothers me when someone you see this, especially with politics, but when someone says I this person who I do follow or who I voted for, I agree 100% with every little thing that they say and do. And the opposite side. I disagree 100% with everything they say and do and I talked to those individuals, and it just doesn’t seem reasonable. Because I don’t myself, like ever I agree 100% with anybody, not even with you. So agreed, how am I going to find that represented in a political figure. But I think that’s true, even beyond politics as well, where we might believe in the person who might believe in the vision, but that doesn’t mean that we have to, you know, every with every little bit everything that they do or believe everything that they say exactly. And I think that especially if it’s someone that we collaborate with and have interchange with an important role as a follower can be that check as well to say, Alright, here’s, here’s the direction you’re going, here’s how I see things, and you may or may not get your way or be able to express that but at least retaining independence within the process of following, I think is essential.

Rosanna 29:40
I love that and I think that that might be one of the most important takeaways so when we do takeaways, I would like you to reiterate that point because we think because we follow someone or because you know, we’re we ascribe to their vision. We think that we have to do everything that they do. But there has to be this filter of Oh, I follow this person because It makes me better in this arena. But I don’t. I don’t really, you know, I don’t find that to be true about this part of her life. And so like that. That’s not I’m not gonna unfollow her because of that, but also know that like, I don’t have to be just like her. I don’t have to aspire to be that thing. I can follow them because of a select portion of their vision or how they’ve done something well, that it’s not it’s not about following to replicate. It’s about following to find something good to make yourself better.

Jordan 30:30
Yeah. Okay. So I’ve more questions, but I think we’ll need to reserve those for this one. Okay, fire away. You go.

Rosanna 30:38
Oh, do one. Oh, since you’re the one that had all the questions.

Jordan 30:41
I have so many. I feel like we got to talk about these. Okay. Are there different kinds of followers?

Rosanna 30:53
I would say Yeah. Okay. I think that there are follow people will follow. I think they’re idle followers. I think there are reluctant followers, and I think they’re engaged followers. And that’s just off the top of my head, right. Like, we follow something that we’re a part of reluctantly, because that’s like, it’s like

Jordan 31:11
what everybody else is doing. Right? Right. There’s like a fit in your ear. Okay.

Rosanna 31:15
Okay. reluctant followers. What did I say? engaged, engaged, so that I think those are those people who believe in it 100% and give it their all while they’re there. And they in being engaged in like participating and like being a part of the vision, help drive, whatever it is forward. Even if they’re not the leader, they help the leaders get stronger. They help the leaders develop what comes next. And not because they need recognition, but they feel empowered. And I think that’s the biggest part of followership is that followership should make you feel empowered, it shouldn’t make you feel small, it should make you feel like you’re coming alive. Yeah.

Jordan 31:54
Yeah, I agree with that as well.

Rosanna 31:56
And what I say the idol, so there’s the reluctant doesn’t want to be there.

Jordan 31:59
Yeah, the ideal is present,

Rosanna 32:02
present, but is unsure. Yeah. And I think, you know, we fit into those categories, lads, like, I want to be here, but like they’re afraid to go all in. Yeah, they’re afraid what that means because there’s more responsibility,

Jordan 32:14
they won’t see it as a specified john, we have like all in on this end, and at least obligated, but on the other, like the stubborn donkey and the other ends, like getting dragged into it. And so you can you can be somewhere within that spectrum. And the more engaged and the more empowered You are the the further you are at the you know, the fully engaged end of the spectrum.

Rosanna 32:34
Yeah, I would agree. I think there’s so much more to talk about with this topic.

Jordan 32:38
Yeah. But Alright, let’s get to some of our takeaways, some of our applications for ourselves based on this conversation, and then maybe there could be fun follow up that we can do in future episodes. Yeah,

Rosanna 32:49
maybe. So takeaways, number one, being a follower is a good thing. And it’s a necessary thing. Like we don’t always have to drive the bus. And you know, that should like, that should make us feel happy. Yeah. Because to be in charge of everything all the time is tiring. So How nice is it dish to show up and be present without having to like worry about everything else beforehand. We can be led and we can derive benefits by following other people and it can help us grow. We don’t have to direct our growth, we can let someone lead us into that growth. The second, and this was one of my last thoughts was being a follower is about being empowered. You know, when we follow good leaders, organizations, growth is inevitable. It is and we should see that there. And I think, you know, followership has to do with leadership. So the third one would be great followers become powerful leaders. Michael McKinney is the president of a communication and company and leadership now. And he’s the author of a popular blog and he said followership, followership, like leadership is a role and not a destination. So it’s not this, it’s not this submissive thing that you will always be a follower.

Jordan 33:59
It’s not a it’s not a healthy way to define yourself as right. Like, there are some people who are leaders, some people who are followers, we’re all

Rosanna 34:06
but the truth is that we are both Yeah. What was the one thing I wanted you to remind me of, or to recap,

Jordan 34:12
oh, just about going in with like retaining your independence in the course of following as well. And so I think that’s one important thing is just remaining even minded being able to think for yourself and not let the leader or the entity that you follow, do the thinking for you or feel like you have to become them in every way, shape, and form.

Rosanna 34:30
Well, especially since we are so individual that we all have something to bring to the table. And we don’t have to be like everybody else. The part of the strength is finding that individuality within

Jordan 34:40
salutely. Well, thanks for joining us today, everybody. And we wish you happy following let us know what you think I’m I look forward to hearing from him. Thanks so much for listening to today’s show. We hope you will use this conversation as a starting point for your own. We hope you’re encouraged to think and act More intentionally.

Rosanna 35:01
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Jordan 35:13
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Rosanna 35:16
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Jordan 35:26
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Rosanna 35:30
and relentlessly pursuing what matters