Episode 5: The Man in the Arena

Jordan
Hello, and welcome to episode five of the relentless pursuit podcast. We’re glad you’re tuning in once again, and this topic is one we’ve really been looking forward to talking about. The title of today’s episode is The Man in the Arena.

Rosanna
I think you always say that this is one we’ve always been looking forward to.

Jordan
Okay, well, I guess that wouldn’t be a show if we weren’t looking for we’re looking forward.

Rosanna
We’re looking forward to it. I hope you’re looking forward to it too. So today’s podcast, podcast title comes from Theodore Roosevelt’s speech entitled citizenship in a republic. And it’s actually a 35 page speech. And this particular piece comes from page seven, and it’s titled The man in the arena. So he originally had given this speech in April of 1910. And so that’s a really long time ago.

Jordan
That’s the one hundred and ten year anniversary

Rosanna
and 10 year anniversary of the man in the arena. And I remember posting this to my social media maybe about a year or two ago, and I got a lot of feedback on it where people were like, just great, cool. Yeah, they loved it. So we thought we would just start with the reading of this quote, and thanks to Jordan being a high school English teacher for the last 15 years, he’s got a great reading voice. And we’re going to let him read it so that you know what we’re talking about.

Jordan
All right. Well, I hope my voice does justice. So this is just a portion of a much fuller speech that he delivered, correct. Okay. Here comes. “It is not the critic who counts not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errors, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But who does actually strive to do the deeds who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Rosanna
So since the speech was given in 1910, it has been quoted by many famous people, men and women throughout history. It’s been the inspiration behind speeches, songs, books, even Cadillac commercials. There’s actually one of my years ago that they’re, they’re saying this in the background. It’s got to be Jon Hamm, because, like, I’m trying to remember what it is, but I think it’s him. But it’s also been given in speeches by Nelson Mandela, Richard Nixon, Brene Brown, who wrote a book called Daring Greatly. There was that little bit of daring greatly in the quote, but she’s also used parts of the speech in a Netflix special and in her TED Talks. Who else was and Mark de Rosa from the Washington Nationals. I mean, there’s just a bunch of people, Barack Obama who have used parts of this speech. So we’re looking at 100 plus years later, there’s still relevance to this quote. And I think there’s a lot of great connections to the relentless pursuit, this life worth living and what we’re trying to do and what we’re inspiring others to do is you know, to, to get in the arena.

Jordan
Okay, so my first question for you, okay, what is the arena?

Rosanna
I think the arena is different for all of us. I think for some people, the arena is our jobs. I think for other people that arena is our family, for some of the arena is our community. So the arena is different for everybody.

Jordan
I was thinking about that too. Like it’s it’s a great metaphor, but it’s I think there’s there’s two facets. There’s the arena and then there’s the the sideline or the spectators, right. And so they the arena could mean like you said, like anything for anybody, but it’s the the person who’s engaged somehow versus watching others who are engaged.

Rosanna
Yeah, I think that it draws a line where there’s the man that’s in the arena, who is he’s daring. And he’s being brave, and he’s trying, he’s being courageous. He’s probably making mistakes. He’s falling down, but he’s getting back up and he’s trying. So whatever that pursuit is, he’s persisting. While there’s this other group of people who are on the sidelines, just watching. They’re too afraid to get in there and do what he’s doing too afraid to fail, maybe to look silly, but you know, they’re on the outside.

Jordan
Yeah. Now, one thing that this this struck – this struck me, it struck a lot of courts with me, but one thing that comes to my mind was kind of who I feel like I used to be in a sense, we’ve talked about this before where I was very bookish, like I felt very comfortable kind of just reading and knowing a lot. But then it struck me maybe about a decade ago or so that I could I could read and become an expert on anything. But it didn’t really mean much until I, I applied it until I engaged with the world in some way. Like, I could read everything there is to know about snowboarding. But unless I actually get on a snowboard and try it, like what, what really is the purpose of that knowledge of that information? I could critique other snowboarders, I could know the whole history of snowboarding. But it doesn’t seem like it has a great deal of value until there’s some degree of application of it.

Rosanna
Well, and I think that also speaks to your profession as a teacher, right? In order to be a teacher, you need to master the material. And the best way to show mastery over something is by doing it and by teaching it. Anyone could read that book in front of a class and ask them questions, but until you’ve mastered the material, and can teach them what it means, you’re really you’ve shown no mastery over anything until you can do that. So I think that’s an you know, an interesting parallel.

Jordan
Yeah, it’s like you get you can gain knowledge from, like, from consuming it from reading about it you gain knowledge from experience and both have value but seems like the man in the arena, or I’d say the woman in the arena – whoever’s in the arena – is engaged in gathering experience that you can’t get from just reading about it or just having a passive knowledge of it.

Rosanna
Right? Well, it’s funny as just the title, the man in the arena, the first thing that I picture is I picture Russell Crowe in the gladiator, okay, that’s that’s like the first image

Jordan
Because he’s literally a man’s in an arena.

Rosanna
Literally the man it’s an arena, the spectators are around him. And there’s that one scene where he says, you know, he throws his hands up and he’s like, are you not entertained and people are kind of like booing him a little bit because they’re like mad cuz he’s just like, in a minute flat like just like slaughtered everybody. And they’re like mad because they’re there to be entertained by his efforts and maybe even like, watch him die at that point. That’s kind of what they’re expecting. And then when he breaks their expectations by like just killing it, they’re just like, Wait, what? So it’s interesting to see like the spectators aren’t necessarily cheering him on the way that you think that they should for what he’s just done.

Jordan
Like they’re just trying to consume his exploits for entertainment, but that he’s the one actually exerting effort in that instance.

Rosanna
Right. Yeah. Right.

Jordan
So, you have a question for I have questions for you.

Rosanna
I have question. Okay. So it made me think of Aristotle, because Aristotle says, I know, he makes fun of me. I always tell him he’s like to like in the clouds, and he’s kind of out there.

Jordan
And I’ve edited blog posts, specifically to take our references to ancient philosophers. That’s okay.

Rosanna
So according to Aristotle, courage is the first of all virtues because without courage, nothing else is possible. How do you think this applies specifically to the man in the arena To our lives to what we’re titling the relentless pursuit. How do you see that fitting?

Jordan
I think actually, I want to reference the quote a little bit. Because courage plays a part in in stepping into the the arena. I think it’s maybe it’s not in the quote, but I get what it kind of shows to me is that the critic, or the person on the sideline is taking the easy job. And it’s, in a sense, maybe a sign of weakness to jeer from the sideline, anybody can do that, right. You don’t need any particular skill or experience to stand aside and then critique someone else’s attempts. But I think it takes courage to get into the arena – and this is going to lead into my next question too – because you could fail. You can’t fail as a critic, but you can fail if you try something. And to me that’s what the arena represents is the person who is working, who is engaged, who is trying And this quote, doesn’t talk about success, it talks about victory or defeat or success or failure. And I think that’s the important thing that is essential to take from this is that it’s not about the outcome. It’s about the attempt. And for us, I think that embodies the relentless pursuit. Like it’s not the relentless success. But it’s that that journey along the way, and what you learn from those experiences that you get. So this leads into my my question, which is, I think, I think many of us and I know you would agree with the statement that it’s better to try and fail than to never have tried at all. But why is that the case? Like in my mind, if you if you try something and you fail, that takes you backwards from where you began. But if you don’t try and you just stay where you’re at, like, isn’t that isn’t that better than if you try and fail?

Rosanna
I think that’s funny because I think that’s the way that most people think it’s, I’m comfortable here this is okay here; people have recognized where I am. Here is respectable

Jordan
It’s like I’m comfortable, it’s okay.

Rosanna
Yeah, like, Oh, yeah, that’s, that’s great. That’s where you’re at. But then when you try and do something and maybe get knocked down, we’re afraid of being kind of judged. We’re afraid of losing status, money, power. Yes. And so people can, sometimes when we take that leap forward, and we fall, people can see those things and see them in a way that shows our weaknesses. So then we have to, you know, it’s we’re trying to say faces, we want everyone to see us in our best light, putting our best foot forward, and we’re afraid for people to see that sometimes we’re going to try for something and we’re, it’s not going to be okay.

Jordan
I think there’s that negative social outcome. I think there’s other negative outcomes too. It could be negative financial outcome if you put money toward something and then it doesn’t pan out, or it could be, you know, you go for a promotion that does, you know, maybe gets awarded to somebody else. I think there’s other negatives where when you you put yourself out there, you can end up moving further behind than when you began. So and I know we’ve done some things that have worked out really well. But we’ve also tried some things that the net gain was negative, and you’re kind of scratching your heads afterwards, like, what was that all for? So what do you feel like? So just as a follow up, like, what do you feel like a person does gain by trying and failing, according to this quote.

Rosanna
I think there’s knowledge and experience in failure. And it’s not something that in the moment, when failure happens, we’re like, yes, like, I totally destroyed this. And, you know, I know there’s a lesson you know, you’re not excited about it, but it does allow you to then use that experience. The next time in moving forward. And so no one wants failure, but when it does come it does prepare us for what’s next. And another step and maybe another attempt, or it proves to us that maybe there shouldn’t be another attempt.

Jordan
That’s what Roosevelt says here. Teddy R. says “who comes short again and again because there’s no effort without error and shortcoming.” And so there’s no you know, in this quote is there’s no reference of guaranteed success either, but it seems like the the effort, regardless of the outcome is more valuable than what he refers to as the “timid souls who don’t know victory or defeat.” So it’s always better to know defeat than to know nothing.

Rosanna
Well, and everybody is always comparing themselves to the next person’s highlight reel. So whether people are looking at their friends or a neighbor or someone that they know, they’re seeing only the good things right. They’re seeing like the new car or a new job promotion, but people don’t understand that sometimes those are laced with a series of disappointments to get there.

Jordan
Yeah, it’s very easy to see, especially with celebrities. But I think social media accelerates that as well, too, because we can literally post our personal highlight reels online. And we’re not really posting a lot about our failures and shortcomings. And so you look at everyone else’s life and think, man, that looks amazing.

Rosanna
Yeah, I would agree. I have a question.

Jordan
Fire away.

Rosanna
All right. So we’re talking about the man in the arena. And it starts with having the courage to step into the arena. And I think that’s that’s one thing that this quote, maybe doesn’t start with or even addresses having the balls to step in. Maybe that’s not the best choice of words. Okay. Well, it’s out there. All right. But I think a lot of times, people make the mistake of calling people confident. That like, because you step in the arena, you’re a confident person. And so I would argue that just because you have the courage to say Step in the arena doesn’t mean you’re confident in moving forward, or you’re confident that it’s going to be a success. So where does confidence come from?

Jordan
Well, I don’t know if confidence ever needs to be a part of the picture. I mean, it just seems like would you would said maybe courage enough to step from the sidelines into the arenas is all that needed. I’m a big fan of the phrase, fake it till you make it and they steal your thunder, you’re going to include it? But to me that references like you, you don’t have to, if you want to step into the arena, you don’t have to have all the answers and big part of the joy and the thrill of the arena is figuring things out as you go along. And I think that’s important for people to recognize is you don’t have to have it all together. You don’t have to have the confidence to feel like you’ve got all the answers and that person probably doesn’t really exist. But what really does exist is person courageous enough to step into the arena to get their hands dirty figuring things out.

Rosanna
Well, and I might argue that then, although confidence doesn’t come from any one thing, confidence does come from experience. So I just think of like my business The first time I did an event. I mean, I woke up nervous. I was sweating the whole time. Yeah, and I think that’s like, a good way to be is when you’re in business, you know, there’s, there’s a little bit of the unknown. And so there’s always like a little bit of fear. But each and every time I do another event, I gain a little bit more confidence from the experience. And that doesn’t mean that those events are like without errors or shortcomings. Or not that an event hasn’t gone well. But things like Oh, the next time I’m here, I would do this differently, a different approach a different tool in my tool belt that I would bring with me that would make something easier. So I think confidence comes from experience, and you can’t gain that experience without stepping into the arena. Like you can learn the experience from books or from a podcast or from a course –

Jordan
And those help too…

Rosanna
And unless you’re applying them in a real time situation and chasing after something, you’re not going to have that confidence that comes with time and practice.

Jordan
So you have to do it.

Rosanna
You have to do it.

Jordan
Alright, I’ve got a few good questions for you. I like this one: Who would you say is a man or woman in the arena that you admire? This could be anybody – a historial figure, fictitious figure, friend, a modern celebrity.

Rosanna
This is one of those things where you probably should ask them ahead of time, so I could ponder it for like three or four minutes so I could have like maybe a more tangible example in my own real life and you know, maybe someone that’s very well know.

Jordan
Alright, so speak. Let’s speak and I can do this too. Like let’s speak more generically, was the type of person that you admire who’s in the arena.

Rosanna
I think the type of people that I admire are people who are uniquely them. You know, we’ve most recently interviewed Leo Spizzirri. And he said that the first couple times he did like a podcast interview or had to like teach to like a bigger audience. He was so focused on trying to be like other people in his realm, in his arena that he felt like he failed. And the guy said, hey, look, listen, we like you because of who you are. And so do you. And if that if you don’t sound like everybody else, and if you don’t talk like everyone else, that’s fine. We’re not here to to be like somebody else. We’re here because we like you. So to me, people who are just unashamedly themselves, and I don’t in I mean, I think of friends that I have like this, that they’re just them. And I really appreciate those kinds of people because I’m not looking for them to be like me or to be like somebody else, I know. I want to learn from them the way that they are because I think everybody has a little something that you can take from them.

Jordan
I would answer this question maybe like without naming any, any specific people like I have always admired your average community member who becomes a public service, public servant at the local level. I’ve admired that because they’re engaging in the community and filling in a spot that needs to be filled by someone and we could critique them. Like I don’t always agree with the decisions that they make. You know, some of them can be more self serving, and there’s plenty of reasons to maybe critique the people that step up as our leaders. But anyone on a community board on a school board, any citizen that is willing to step into that bigger role is to me someone who is getting engaged and maybe slightly related is I always think of the local coaches who have coached our kids. There’s a sideline full of parents and I admired the coach who is just another one of the parents who steps off the sideline onto the court or onto the field and is willing to assume responsibility for that team. And I think metaphorically that works with within communities and you know, within organizations, that person who’s entering, I’ll get off the sideline, and I’ll take whatever I have, and try to make the most of it with this team, or with this community.

Rosanna
And I love that too. I mean, now that you say that I every year and you’ve been the coach sometimes and maybe you don’t know much more than the kids know, but you know, you’ve taken the time to like, say, Alright, I’m instead of just sitting on the sidelines and watching my kids play, I’ll step in, I’ll give the knowledge that I have, I will guide in, in the capacity that I have, and and I will do that and not everybody does that.

Jordan
Yeah, I think that’s a small thing, but I admire the people who you know, take are taking on much bigger responsibilities and much bigger tasks that no one necessarily you know, asked or required of them, but they they’re taking an interest in good beyond themselves.

Rosanna
Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of people, they do that for certain causes that are close to them. And it’s things that things that they do every single year, every, you know, certain times of the year, whether it’s like fundraisers or walks or ways to show support for different communities. And I think that’s really important too, because you don’t, you don’t have to do that. And you could be a spectator on the side that just maybe donates money or, you know, buys the T shirt, but they’re –

Jordan
or does nothing or curve critiques that –

Rosanna
Right. But they’re the ones who are like formulating an idea and events and pushing it through gathering other people for the cause and moving it forward.

Jordan
Yeah. But for me, in the broadest sense, the arena refers to anything that is any any like tangible engagement. So it could be the person who tries and then just fill in the blank with anything. It could be, they’re trying a new business idea. They’re trying a personal goal, like they want to run a marathon. They’re trying to grow a garden for the first time. Like, it doesn’t, the arena doesn’t have to be big and it doesn’t have to be world changing world changing. It doesn’t even have to be extroverted. It’s it’s the engagement with something rather than the the sidelining or the the wishing they were engaged, but not taking that first step to try it.

Rosanna
Yeah. Or the person who buys the treadmill and looks at it, but never puts their foot on it. You know. Very interesting. Here’s one of the questions I have. So we’ve talked about courage. We’ve talked about the courage to step into the arena, gaining confidence, doing something that’s all part of it. I think we should spend a little bit more time on maybe life not being about winning or losing, right. We don’t step in the arena. We don’t step in the arena to lose. That’s not the point in any of this. Whether we’re running a marathon or starting business, we don’t we don’t step in with the idea of wanting to lose, but I think part of the shift has to be that life isn’t also about winning, that it’s about the experience in between those two things. And what we’re striving towards. Do you have thoughts on that idea, that notion of like life isn’t just winning or losing? Like, right? If you win? What happens? Like, what what is winning?

Jordan
I feel like life is like monopoly, like you could win the whole thing. And then you got to put it all back in the box.

Rosanna
Right. So how do we focus more on the pursuit and not like the victory or the loss?

Jordan
Yeah, I mean, I think that comes with in some of the philosophy that undergirds the conversations that we have that idea of, of in being engaged and of trying. No, you’re right, like no one expects or hopes to lose as the outcome of whatever they’re trying to engage in, but it is certainly reality. And I think that that’s, that’s what makes it far more interesting is there’s a risk of losing. If you’re not In the game, then you’re not going to lose. And there’s a certain safety with that. But the idea that you could lose can like when I tell the kids like, if you play this game, you could lose it. I don’t want any tears at the end, right. It’s about having fun. I think that his life is similar, where there’s plenty of things we could engage in, and we could lose in some big ways. But there is there is a preference for that over not ever been in a position that you could lose.

Rosanna
I mean, you talked about this in your blog post about like risk aversion. We’re like, we were afraid of what we have what we have, as opposed to having some sort of risk where it could be taken away. And so I think the mentality shift has to be that if we’re not, if there’s not some risk associated with what we’re doing, then maybe we’re doing it wrong. To do the same thing repeatedly with no change in outcome, like it’s it’s safe, and it’s okay and that’s what some people do, but if you’re looking for fuller richer experience. If you’re looking to learn if you’re looking to improve, then maybe some risk has to be involved.

Jordan
Yeah. And I’m a fan of like trying things and then walking away from them, too. I know like you and I, for a long time, like felt compelled to read an entire book from beginning to end until it dawned on us like, oh, oh, if we don’t like the book, we don’t have to continue reading.

Rosanna
That was like five years ago for me, because I’m like, I’m loyal to a fault. So I’m like, you start a book, then you need to, from you read every word from cover to cover, and you can’t just put it down. And you told me like, well, if you don’t like it, don’t read it.

Jordan
I think that’s the case with other things that we engage in as well. Where it’s important to – try like you never know until you try. And if you’re not enjoying that pursuit, or you don’t feel committed to it, or you do feel like you’re losing maybe more than you expected, then you can turn aside from that and then go pursue something else. Or if you’re just tired of it, if you’re like how I I’ve contributed time to this now. I would like to go contribute time to that. I think that’s fair as well.

Rosanna
Yeah, I would agree. Do you have more questions?

Jordan
I have some questions that I’d like to talk about. I don’t feel like we can do justice on the air here. But I want to talk about like us. And so one question that maybe we don’t need to answer now, but we’ll continue in our own dialogues is what what is the arena for us? Are we are we are we on the sidelines? Are we in the arena? Or what arenas are we currently in? And what arenas should we probably get in that we’ve been, you know, toeing in the sideline for long enough?

Rosanna
No, nothing like roasting us over the fire live on our podcast, right.

Jordan
So that’s why I think that this is going to require a little more like reflection and dialogue between us before we can really answer but those that’s the kind of question I would encourage a lot of listeners to engage with as well, too, are like it’s kind of exciting to think Yeah, I’m gonna get into the arena, but what are the arenas that are open and available and we’re, you know, long overdue for getting in and what are the ones where maybe were even like the the critics of having never really tried that or engaged in it ourselves?

Rosanna
I think those are those are great questions. I mean, those are great questions for the two of us. Those are great questions. For reals. Yeah. What arenas Are we the critic in, we’ve never tried. We’ve never even put ourselves out there. But we’re going to criticize everybody else who’s been trying and getting it wrong, according to us.

Jordan
So that’s, or maybe reverse that too, and think about who are who are the men and women in our lives who are in the arena, that instead of being the critic of we can be the cheerleader for because this quote, doesn’t reference any cheerleaders. But I think that that can be an important role of someone on the sideline.

Rosanna
Right? It’s not the critic who counts not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, right, but we’re there to help raise those people. I think that’s great. I think that’s a great way to be. I’m also thinking about to what arenas are we in and instead of having that, like Russell Crowe image, right. I’m not I am not standing in the middle slaying it throwing my hands up…

Jordan
I wouldn’t mind having that image.

Rosanna
But like, I’m sometimes like the guy who’s like, in the corners of the arena, like, you know, everybody because I lacked the experience, I lacked the confidence and I lacked the courage. I am in the arena. But I am not contributing in the arena. How do I push myself forward to take more risks?

Jordan
Or is there a way to, you know, team up with Russell Crowe, and you know, let him do the heavy work, but we could learn as we go until we can take over that position.

Rosanna
Yeah, I think that’s great. All right.

Jordan
Well, like many of our conversations, I think we’re ending with more questions than answers. But it is inspiring just to dialogue through this with you. And I hope you guys have had a good time listening to some of these ideas and some of these questions as well. So what takeaways do we have at this point in our conversation?

Rosanna
I think one of the biggest ones is that greatness isn’t what you achieve; greatness is what you do. And so I may be able to do great things, but they are not going to warrant a summer home in the Hamptons, or a trophy. But that doesn’t mean that the things that I am personally pursuing and doing, whether it’s for my family or for my kids, my friends in my industry aren’t great things. And I think sometimes we let that stop us. That it’s not what we achieve, but it’s what we do – repeatedly do.

Jordan
Yeah. I would also say like if, you know, when we’re old and kind of looking back, it’s more rewarding to say, Well, I at least I tried it. I engaged with it. This was my lofty goal, and maybe I didn’t meet that, but here’s how far I was able to, to get on that path towards achieving it. And that’s better than saying, no, maybe maybe better than saying that I got that summer home in the Hamptons and better than saying that, you know, didn’t try anything at all.

Rosanna
Okay, I think the second one would be that confidence comes from experience and even failures are the kinds of experiences not that we should strive for, but that when they do happen, we should make the most of it.

Jordan
Like failure is okay, as long as you’re learning from it and seeing that as a chance to, like, get out of your comfort zone.

Rosanna
Yeah. Just having having the courage to do that. And I think the last one is that life isn’t about winning or losing.

Jordan
Hmm. Yeah, I agree.

Rosanna
Okay, yeah. Do you have any takeaways that you’d like to add to that?

Jordan
I just want to echo those. And, you know, we’re going to have this quote, as well as some of the questions that we asked each other some of the questions that we didn’t get a chance to ask one another in our show notes as well. And we’re interested in hearing more of your thoughts and perspectives on the man in the arena. What are the arenas of life? What are some ways that you are engaged, maybe some ways that you’re ready to begin engaging in? We want you to share your comments on our YouTube link, or you can share a five star rating and review on anywhere he may listen to your podcasts. Please get in touch with us if you haven’t visited our website yet it is therelentlesspursuitpodcast.com and we are interested in continuing to talk to you, as well as talking to one another about these important things in life. So thank you so much for tuning in to Episode Five. We hope to see you back again soon!