Episode 10: Back to School…ish

Rosanna
Hello, and welcome to Episode 10 of the relentless pursuit podcast. We’re calling this episode back to school ish,

Jordan
ish. ish.

Rosanna
This may be the most important episode of our first season. And I say that because it’s something this topic is happening in real time. And it’s affecting a lot of us and I think maybe people would say that only parents who have students that are going back to school are being impacted by what’s happening right now. But I think all members of the community have a stake in what school will look like during the 20-21 school year.

Jordan
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And it’s it’s certainly a circumstance that is It’s frustrating for everybody. And it kind of takes what we’re used to and throws it out the window. And that’s not just true only in education. But I think we’re feeling it more so now because the question of what are we going to do with our children for the short term? What’s going to become their education or for the long term are pretty significant questions to be grappling with right now.

Rosanna
Yeah. So as parents, as communities, as schools, as we’re all getting ready to go back to school, and by the time you hear this, you may already have students back in school, we all have to recognize that it’s not going to be easy. It’s not going to be a one size fits all approach. There will be schools, districts and states who are online, some who are in person, some that have a hybrid of both. But regardless of what the situation in this scenario is, for our families, and for our students, we’re really going to have to dig in. We are no longer in control, which we like to be in control, right. There’s usually a rhyme and a reason and a routine with back to school that happens. You by the school supplies, you buy the new gym shoes, you put them on the bus, you say goodbye, right? And you kind of like thrust into this next season or next phase.

Jordan
That’s helpful because that’s that is predictable. We’ve organized our lives around that pattern. So now that the pattern is thrown off, how do we kind of make the most of what we do have control over?

Rosanna
Right. So it’s not the norm. We’re not in control. So how are we going to handle this? So let’s talk. Yeah, let’s start with, I think in order for everybody to kind of really think about this, we need to kind of go back to the basics in a way. And I think we all just need to take a step back and contemplate what is education.

Jordan
Yeah, and a lot of people have come up to us for the past six months or so into like, Oh, well, like you both have backgrounds in education. You must know a lot of these answers are you must have had a great time with your kids at home during the spring semester, teaching them and laughing and we’re like, No, it’s nothing like that. It was really full of challenges. And we don’t have all the answers or even many answers at all. And we’re really in the same circumstance, as almost everyone else finds himself in with just trying to orchestrate like, how are we going to facilitate our child’s learning, alongside being professionals who need to be working as well. I saw an article not too long ago that the subline was either you can have a kid or you can have a job, but you can’t have both. And I think that points to some of the challenges that we’re seeing both between prioritizing the health and safety of everyone in society, and also grappling with the economic ramifications that that has, and we feel that as a society and we feel that as a household. So how do we balance those things, especially when a lot of it is just flat out, not in our control. So going back to your question, what is education? I think we have to start here. And I’m glad you brought that up. Because we really have to recognize that education is more than what happens at school. And I think Mark Twain was the one who had quipped at some point that he said, I try not to let my schooling interfere with my education. And it’s important to realize that school plays an important role in a child’s education but it is not the end all be all of the learning that takes place in a child’s development into adulthood. So I would define education in its broadest sense as everything a child learns as they develop into a young adult.

Rosanna
So not just content knowledge of subjects, you’re talking about. If you’re talking about everything that they learn, you’re talking about morals, values, right like. Societal constructs and norms.

Jordan
Responsibility, attitude, yeah, culture, like there’s a lot of different places like children are going to be educate a lot of different sources children are going to receive their education from. And I think that the centerpiece of any child’s education is their family and is their parents. Because that is where they’re living day in, day out. And they’re even when we don’t intentionally try to teach something or pass something specific on, that’s just the environment that our kids are living in, and they’re absorbing that from us. And so, we don’t often think of it this way, but I would say like parents are your children’s first and most important teachers, and any other learning that takes place, at a school or from other organizations or other other sources are ones that the parent has chosen to partner with. But it’s still that parents choice for you know, who gets partnered with and who they don’t.

Rosanna
But so then I think a bigger point that you’re making is, so really the parent and what the parent teaches the child from like zero to three, four or five years when they start school is like the foundation of their educational journey. Because it’s not just the ABCs and the math and the reading. It’s, it’s not that it’s everything that comes before. Even the teaching them about what learning is, and like those expectations for learning and growing.

Jordan
So I think that schools could never really encompass the totality of what education truly involves. They occupy a very important space within a child’s education, and there’s a lot that they’re going to get from their schooling experience. But as we think it’s important to consider what education is because Plan A is I’m going to teach my child what I can for my household. I’m going to outsource a portion of their learning to their local school, or their private school, or homeschooling, or however we choose to facilitate that. But that’s Plan A and plan A just isn’t going to work for the foreseeable future. Eventually, we can get back to Plan A. But for now, we have all these wrenches thrown into this pattern that we’re accustomed to that it’s important to look back and say like, okay, education doesn’t stop. Our children are going to be learning during this time, one way or another. Some of it’s still going to be from the school. And some of it’s still gonna be from us. So if we can understand the fact that that is still going on, then we can take a look at what can we control and what is out of our control, and then we can focus on taking responsibility for what we still can during this time.

Rosanna
I think that’s why parents are struggling because that’s planning. Just like as adults and even as young adults, we have like a plan for life. This is like, we’re going to go to college here, then we’re going to get this degree and get this job like, right, it’s a succession of steps that we’re working towards that if we do everything just right, then we get the outcome that we want. And so it would be the same with educating our kids, right? As part of Plan A, we move to this neighborhood that is associated with this school because we believe in public education, and we want our kids to go to this school with these types of teachers who are going to facilitate this kind of learning and knowledge. And we’re going to partner with them, we’re going to be on the PTO, we are going to attend parent teacher conferences, we’re going to be involved, we’re going to know what’s going on.

Jordan
We’re gonna make sure our kids do their homework and being the kind of citizen we want them to be outside of the house.

Rosanna
Correct. And we’re gonna all of these other programs through the local park districts and the community, right, like, these are all the ways we’re going to build into our children’s learning, knowledge, education, understanding of the world to be productive citizens. Okay, so we’ve taken all these steps to get there. And now that plan A is out the window. And so I think this is where people are struggling, it’s like, Okay, this is what I want. This is kind of what we need for our kids. And now that’s not happening. And so I think the result is kind of just sheer anger, and frustration, and rightfully so. So really a lot of this moving forward has to be alright, we have to acknowledge that this is not the norm. We have to acknowledge now that we are not in control, it is not happening according to the way that we want, and how are we going to be flexible? And how are we going to challenge ourselves in our attitudes to make sure that we can do the best that we can for our kids while keeping them safe?

Jordan
Yeah, so we’re kind of on to plan B. And like I said, like we we’ve structured so much of our pattern of living around Plan A, now that we’re unable to facilitate that, Plan B is really cruddy. A lot of it may involve us at home with our kids trying to facilitate the school’s lesson. And it’s really hard to take a teacher’s lesson for your child and implement that at home.

Rosanna
Especially when you are not a trained educational professional.

Jordan
I think even if you are, it’s it’s like, you know, you’re you’re kind of like the sub, in a sense, right? Where if no matter how like we saw this too, like we have experience in this field, but even taking something that someone else designed and had intended to implement in their way in their classroom, trying to do that in our way in our environment, that it doesn’t translate the same. And it’s a frustrating experience for the teacher for our kids and for us, even though we’re all doing the best that we can in that circumstance. And I think we need to acknowledge that too. Like, it’s not what any of us would have wanted. And it’s kind of trying to make the most of the circumstance that we are in, but there are inherent challenges and frustrations that come along with it.

Rosanna
So if anybody is feeling frustrated, and wants to pull out their hair, like we can acknowledge it, this is a very good reason to do it right there that this is something that we are all dealing with and trying to deal with and figure out what the best route is. So if you do feel like that you’re not alone, because you have to educators, trained professionals with their own kids, right? It’s like your kids, you know, behave much better at school for their teacher than they do for you at home. Right? Or they

Jordan
My favorite is when like it can’t believe you just did that. I’m going to call your teacher and tell them no, no, no, don’t call my teacher!

Rosanna
That yeah, so we get that it’s you know, you’re taking your their kids out of their like normal learning environment, and then you’re putting them at home. And for us, that would be if we are remote learning for part of the year or on certain days of the week, I will simultaneously have a kindergartener that I’m helping facilitate knowledge for and learning and teaching a third grader and a fifth grader. We also have a two year old who you know does not adhere to the rules because he’s two.

Jordan
He only draws on the walls once in a while.

Rosanna
So you know, there’s there’s some limitations there, right where the teacher in the classroom is teaching all the third graders where I would be splitting my time between three students who have a variety of levels and a variety of needs. And we won’t even go into parents who have children with IEPs, or learning disabilities or other things that really kind of keep them from learning, but at the right pace.

Jordan
Right, and I think every family’s circumstances different and that’s one of the first things that we all have to acknowledge is that there really is no one size fits all solution, because there there is no one size or circumstance that families are sharing. You have households with one parent of households with two parents, you have households where, you know, maybe both parents can be home and facilitate learning with their children; households where both parents are expected to be out of the house. Then it’s like, well, if my kids are home, what what in the world am I going to do? And there’s there’s every little nuance and challenge that’s there. So I think that’s one of the first things that we want to recognize with Plan B is that there are some things that are just going to be priorities that they just have to happen. And some things that are, we’d like to get to, but we just, this is not the right time or environment to facilitate that. And we have to be okay with letting that go.

Rosanna
Right. So you I mean, you have students that are high schoolers, and so legally, they can be left at home during the school day. But that also does not ensure that learning is happening when they’re at home and if two parents are out of the house. So a motivated student right, will probably continue to thrive and do well. But for those who struggle, this is not an ideal situation. You even have students who then maybe because parents have lost jobs, and they may have a part time job. They may have extended to what like full time hours to help carry the family along to put food on the table to help pay the bills. While things are not ideal in the economy and with job situations, so how does a school then expect that 17 year olds to say, Oh, I’m sorry, I have to report online for five hours of school, or I have to go to work to feed my family.

Jordan
They’re caught between multiple significant responsibilities. Yeah. And so it is it is really challenging. And that’s where I think families and students and schools are all caught in the middle. We are doing, you know, as much as we can to make the most of learning during this time. But this this time and the recommendations and the regulations that are coming out within each state, it really puts restrictions on how much of our typical Plan A kind of learning we can do. So yeah, I mean, the where we’re making the most of it, and the most doesn’t feel like very much right now. It feels like maybe things are even more complicated than they were. So I think we we have to acknowledge that that no matter your circumstances, it’s not what any of us would have chosen or would have planned on. But this is the reality that we live in. So how do we make the most of it? And I think that goes back to what really does a child’s education encompass.

Rosanna
Okay. And so what does it encompass? I think encompasses two things. I think there’s content knowledge, that’s grade appropriate for every level, right? That state has, you know, mandated that you know, a kindergartner, first grader, second grader, high school, these these are things they should be learning and are responsible for. So there’s content and that’s where you have these trained professionals, right that have degrees and even advanced degrees, multiple master’s degrees in these contents to teach these kids that. And so we can acknowledge that we are not those people, not we, you know, personally but just as parents like we may not have that education that allows us to do that. But there’s a whole nother set of things that kids are taught if you’re looking at education, and that is morals, values behaviors, like school isn’t school just doesn’t –

Jordan
Your habits, your your culture like yeah, those are things that go well beyond what could ever be incorporated into curriculum.

Rosanna
Right, like school and other people can teach you how to think. Right? What are good study habits, those are like behaviors about you turn in work, you get credit, like, what are those implications, those life skills that are transferable to jobs, like that’s not through reading a book, but it’s the behaviors that you learn being a part of school. And so those are still things that we can teach from home, attitude, morals, values, just systematic theory of participating in and helping be a part of a community.

Jordan
Right. So I think that’s where it comes down to as parents we’ve got to look and say like, okay, we we can’t replicate what’s what would normally go on in the classroom. We’re going to work with our schools according to whatever that that school plan is to do the best job we can, you know, keeping our students learning at school moving forward. But there are things that maybe now is a time that we can focus on what we as parents can teach. And that’s gonna be that’s gonna look different than what our classroom teachers can teach, but appropriately so. So what are the things that we do know? What are the skills that we have? What are our passions that we can bring our child alongside and say, Hey, like, let’s take some time to explore this together? Or what are some of the things that our children are interested in that doesn’t really have a strong intersection with the school curriculum that we can say like, right now? Like, let’s let’s take some time to explore that together. Like you’ve talked about this thing. we’ve examined this, let’s kind of double down in this area you’re personally interested in and see where this goes.

Rosanna
Okay. I think that’s a unique thing right? Like for parents who like to cook, right or bake, right, there’s, there’s a great way to bring kids alongside in that. And there are even ways to teach math and to teach it right reading a recipe, right? Using different calculations and measurements, like, we can teach them those things that’s not on a worksheet, but it’s a skill. And it’s a concept that allows them to continue to learn and grow and facilitate bigger ideas and bigger thoughts, that that will still is still an education. It’s just not the plan A education.

Jordan
Right. So as best as we can, this might be a time to look at that opportunity that we have for our children. And this is where maybe not everyone will agree with what I’m about to say. But I think there’s a certain amount of knowledge and learning that children get from school. And that can that will is going to go slower over the course of this school year. They may not get as much, you know, education or learning from school that they would in a typical year. And I think that students can recoup that. I think that that can be remediated, I still think there’s going to be long term consequences for just the sheer quantity of knowledge that they can learn over the course of their schooling. But at the same time, I look back to everything I learned through the time we graduated high school, and how much of that after I graduated did I really was was completely necessary. We’ve forgotten a great deal of what we’ve learned.

Rosanna
Sure, remember learning all the states and all the capitals, right? And the maps coloring the maps and where everything was looked like right? That’s the process of learning and memorization and it’s not so much about you know, that Bismarck is the capital of does that North Dakota or South Dakota or North Dakota I think? Yeah, see, so sometimes, but learning that did not make me a successful entrepreneur.

Jordan
Right? So there’s, there’s a great deal that’s valuable from school. But at the same time, like looking at the bigger picture, there are still valuable things that we can have our students learned during this time. And still looking at the long term, there’s there’s a lot of there’s a lot of years left, we’re talking about our youth. And so if we can teach them some of the foundational practices that will make them successful in any realm that they find themselves and then I think we can at least say that we’ve done that much and set them up for success in that regard. So looking at Plan B, I think what we get to is this idea of there’s a lot that we can’t control, the what can we take control over. One of the first ones that you were referencing was attitude, and we are all challenged and frustrated during this time, but our attitude that we exemplify in front of our children in front of our students will have an impact on how they respond to the circumstances as well. So like how would you recommend like a parent go about sort of like coping with the implicit frustrations that are here and teaching their child how to how to deal in kind?

Rosanna
Well, I think there’s going to be that moment where when your school your district, your state mandates whatever it is that they’re mandating for learning, you’re going to have to take a minute and I think that’s a minute to yourself, a minute with your spouse, a minute with your other mom and dad and you know, parent friends…

Jordan
Is there any plan that a district could come out where the response is not going to be, “What?!”

Rosanna
No. If we send them we’re crazy for sending them. If we keep them home, you’re crazy for thinking that we’re going to keep them. Like there’s a halftime who’s gonna remember who’s going on what day and what like, so it’s not going to be ideal. So I think part of it is like, okay, let it out. Let out your frustration. let out your anxiety, let out your fears in a safe environment away from your children’s ears, right? Like, figure out what that needs to be, and have that moment and then gather yourself, right? And fix your attitude and realize that schools are doing what they’re kind of being mandated to do, that they’re in a lose lose situation, and that they’re going to try this. It’s unprecedented. There’s no rulebook, this is you know, the, you know, even though we’re calling this plan B, this is like planned disaster for them, and realize that the way that we move forward with our attitude will have a bigger impact on our children and how they feel and what they feel capable of doing, and how they even feel about their safety if we are just cheerleaders for them in this instead of critics, right?

Jordan
So it’s okay to go into our bedroom and close the door and pull our hair out. Or have our friend or group of friends who we can like commiserate with. But once we’re in front of our kids, it’s, “We can do this, we’re going to figure this out together, we’re going to make the most of this somehow.”

Rosanna
Yeah, but not in a, in a lying way in a, we have to remind ourselves this. This year is not going to be ideal. And it could be that this year and part of the next year is not going to be ideal. And we have to keep reminding ourselves, we are not in control. This is not the norm, but we can do this. Ultimately, we’re okay right now. So let’s, let’s make the best of the situation.

Jordan
Yeah. And I, I am just thinking through what the opposite would look like if you know, to and in front of our children, we had a really pessimistic attitude, then I think that would sort of give them permission to have that same attitude. And that’s how they would begin interpreting and responding to the circumstances as well.

Rosanna
Yeah. And then that would impact how they feel about school, how they feel about education. What they think of like local government, like it has lasting impact. So teaching them to, you know, make make the best lemonade they can out of the lemons considering is a skill that they need to figure out for life, because life is not always going to go according to Plan A.

Jordan
Right. So that’s one of the biggest things that we can do is make sure that we focus on having the right attitude. And, you know, one thing that comes to mind too, is that, you know, I’ve talked to plenty of kids and as we’ve had conversations, now I expressed to them, it’s the most important thing, the reason why you came to school, so you can be in your classroom learning from your teacher alongside your peers. There’s only one thing that would get in the way of a student doing that. One reason why we would have a students down in the office instead of in their classroom, or you know, being home rather than being at school is because of safety. And I think that that’s important to recognize too is that like learning is the most important thing except for the thing that is – is always in any environment the most important – is safety. If you don’t have your health, if you can’t go about business in a way that is going to ensure your your well being, then you got to take a step back and make sure that that is in place before you can go back to whatever your objective is.

Rosanna
And I think that’s what a lot of people miss. So being and working for schools, we understand this more so than maybe even some parents recognize or even people who don’t have kids in school is that teachers, administrators, superintendents, like local school districts want to keep kids safe. So when we think about children’s safety, the things that come to my mind are like lockdown drills, right that if someone was to come into the building, to you know, jeopardize the safety of kids, we take that very seriously. Same thing with like tornado drills or fight, right? We take those things very seriously because we want to make sure that we protect all of the students. And I don’t think that everybody realizes that the school not only wants to teach students but wants to keep them safe, right before we had kids, I had kids. They were high school kids that were my first days of teaching not much younger than I was. And teachers and administrators, they take on that role of like protectors, you know, just like parents. And they want to do and see what’s best for those kids. And so when you have a global pandemic that is threatening their safety, that’s a big deal.

Jordan
This is not unique to any one district either. I’ve seen a lot of folks like give responses to their, their schools or their districts’ leadership, and sometimes what the response from the leadership is that this is this is not unique to this district. We’re not the only district trying to navigate remote learning or hybrid learning, or you know, building in these, these safety protocols to facilitate education this fall, this is everywhere.

Rosanna
Yeah. And we know a lot of educators, principals and whatnot, who we’ve talked to say like, how are you feeling like what are you know, as they’re waiting on mandates and what will be voted on and what the plans are. And a lot of them say, I, I’m not sleeping at night, because ultimately, when you’re the head of a school, and you’re the head of the teachers and the staff and the students, no one wants to make any kind of decision that puts anybody in jeopardy. And so we all have to realize that everyone is doing the best that they can, trying to not only educate and keep, you know, communities running and children thriving and families and going, but that this is going to be a really hard process for everybody.

Jordan
Right. So, so we talked about attitude. I mean, one of the most important things that’s parents can appropriately facilitate during this time. Aanother thing that we’ve been talking about is taking a look at what you can’t control. And just acknowledging that we can’t control a lot. But also taking time to look at there are still some facets that we can control and taking responsibility for putting what we can into those.

Rosanna
Yeah, so when you know kids are sent home with a list of expectations they’re trying to meet and then they sent home some of those buffer activities like, okay, here’s, here’s the assignments you have to turn in. But if you have more time, or if your mom has more patience, try these try these enrichment activities. Like, just feel free to let them go. That’s okay. Right? If you’re facilitating multiple kids at home, with a lot of different curriculum, maybe there’s just not time or energy or patience, right to get to those extra thing, no one is marking you off. And if they are, well, it is what it is.

Jordan
We can only ask the best from ourselves. So I think we need to just focus on like doing what we can, but also crossing off what we can’t. From there, like, let’s let’s not judge our schools, let’s not judge one another. And maybe the hardest thing is don’t judge yourself. Now really would be an ideal time to lean on others. Even though we’ve been isolated in certain ways. This is a time that presents some unique reasons and opportunities to, to gather together in the sense of like supporting one another and just helping one another navigate some of the challenges that are implicit during this era.

Rosanna
Yeah, I would agree. You know, talk to other parents, talk to other tutors, teachers and see how you can help, how we can help our students how we can help them how we can help each other to kind of learn and grow through this next year. Because even if we start with Plan B by the time the school year ends, if cases increase and things get worse, we might move on to plan C’s, D, E and F. And by then we’re really going to tear out our hair.

Jordan
So this is an important conversation, one that we definitely wanted to bring up on the podcast because a lot of people have asked us just with our background in education, how we’re dealing with things. And the answer is that there’s a lot of challenges and a lot of answers that we don’t know. But we’re trying to recognize that everyone’s circumstances different. And we’re all really just in a position where we can encourage one another, to do what we have to do, and to make the most of the opportunities that we can recognize within this time. You know, one of the things that we were going to do was to come out with a list of tips for facilitating education during this fall. But we realized that some of the things that are going to work for us are really not going to be working for many other families. And so it’s it’s more important that each family, explore what their priorities and what their opportunities are, and dive into those. So when it makes sense to share like, here’s the Catapano daily schedule. And here’s how we you know, three tips for making sure your kids don’t overdose on snacks. Like that didn’t make as much sense to share. But I think just at least opening the door for conversation with one another and with you is important because we want to put some of our thoughts and experiences out there. We want to be receptive to some of the things that you guys are doing, that are making the most of this time that we’re in. So please, you can reach out to us at therelentlesspursuitpodcast.com. You can find our show notes from today’s episode and leave some of your own feedback about your experiences and your thoughts related to education in general, and especially as we navigate Plan B this fall. You can also view this episode on YouTube and leave comments for us there and you can reach out to us directly via email. We look forward to hearing from you guys. And thank you so much for tuning in with us today. Bye guys. Take care