Rosanna 0:15
Welcome to season two, episode six of the relentless pursuit podcast. This episode is titled our flaws and shortcomings.

Jordan 0:23
That’s right. So we’re gonna trim this from a couple hour conversation that we could have to our typical 30 to 40 minutes. But this is one of those conversations where we are gonna get, I think, pretty vulnerable with one another, because we’re really going to talk about ourselves and with all of as well. And, you know, when we originally thinking through season two, this was one of those that I kind of proposed, and I never really thought it would make the final cut. So I’m very glad to be here having this conversation with you. Now, I think it’s necessary that we have it.

Rosanna 1:00
He proposed this, we we hadn’t even yet finished recording season one. And we were starting to generate a list of ideas for season two, when we were driving on a road trip, because we had a bunch of time in the car. And so like as we were talking and thinking about things, we would just like add it to the the note section on our phone. And he’s like, we should do an entire episode, calling out our specific individual flaws and shortcomings. And I looked at him and I said, Are you insane? You want me to publicly talk about the ways in which I think I fall short as a human being and share that with the people who are listening. And it’s not even just an audience of people who don’t know us like there are people who know us that are listening?

Jordan 1:39
Well, they could maybe add to the list.

Rosanna 1:41
I’m sure they could. But you want me to admit that publicly? I go I and I had a couple words for him. But here we are having this conversation.

Jordan 1:49
Yes, yes, it was good. So you know, I think it’s, it’s really important for us to to have this conversation with one another because it’s it’s great for people to be with other people that they trust and with whom they can be vulnerable around with whom they can get, I think like some some feedback from and also it’s it’s great to do, I mean, a lot of what we’ll be talking about is a little bit more of like self reflection, but it’s great to have someone who knows you that you can do that alongside. And so that’s why I think it’s really important exercise that we’re about to indulge in. But maybe more importantly, something that we we don’t do enough, or we do maybe only when something goes wrong. And we have to point out or talk about one of these flaws, rather than acknowledging them, anticipating them and then making improvements to ourselves as we go.

Rosanna 2:41
So I think we’re lucky in the fact that we can do this with each other, I know that some people are in relationships that they maybe don’t feel safe for are unable to be vulnerable with the other person in a relationship. So this doesn’t necessarily just have to be your spouse if you’re not there. But even having trusted people in your corner, whether it’s, you know, siblings, or parents or friends that you trust to be able to do this sort of thing with.

Jordan 3:05
Yeah. And it makes me think of like other times, where sometimes we quote unquote, admit a fault of ours, around someone else, almost in a sense of fishing for compliments, like, I feel like when we were dating, he would do that, like, Ah, you know, I’m so fat. And that’s my opportunity to sweep in and be like, Oh, no, you’re not Honey, come on, you know, to try to build you up. I think this is different. Because anything that I you know, I’m going to say anything you’re going to say like I think we can both acknowledge, and then just talk about maybe why that is and come up with some ideas for how to strengthen that. Turn a weakness or a flaw a virus into something that’s strong.

Rosanna 3:42
But I think that takes a level of maturity and understanding and the mindset of wanting to be better. Because, you know, some people just depending on their background, or past relationships, like they might carry some baggage or some trauma that doesn’t allow them to see that or do that. And so that might not be as easy for them to do. Whereas if a partner or a spouse said like, I really want to talk to you about something I’m seeing in you. And you know, expressing whatever that that fault or shortcoming or failure or whatever that nuance is and then having someone really just respond to that in a very negative or a way that is misunderstood. So,

Jordan 4:27
Right, they can keep having a conversation like this under the wrong pretense can really lead to some backlash. I mean, yeah, can you imagine me sitting I’d be like, Rosanna, we’re gonna go through, I prepared a list of things that are wrong with you. And I’d like for you to receive these and make all the appropriate, you know,

Rosanna 4:48
…to my liking, if you could just adjust in a manner to click to the left and click to the right then we should we should be good.

Jordan 4:53
Right. So I can’t imagine that going very well. And also, this is a give and take as well. We’re both opening up anything that’s really important. So I can’t, I wouldn’t recommend you like thinking through everything someone else has wrong with him and inviting them to sit down so you can delineate those items to them. But really, it was all I mean, let me describe the format of the show. So what we’re saying and I did was we sat down and on our own came up with what we would consider three of our biggest, how would we phrase it three of our biggest flaws or shortcomings.

Rosanna 5:30
I wouldn’t even say a flaw like a shortcoming. Like areas of improvement, we recognize about ourselves that like are not top notch.

Jordan 5:38
Okay. And for fun, we also came up with one for the other person that we have not yet disclosed. So this can get really interesting, really fast, depending on how that goes.

Rosanna 5:51
As we reveal, live on the air.

Jordan 5:53
Exactly. So I’m looking forward to getting to that part and hearing all the wonderful feedback that you have in store for me.

Rosanna 6:00
Okay. But all with the intention of what?

Jordan 6:03
With the intention of, of growing, I wanted to bring this up, because I recently read a book called Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke. She is a professional poker player. But in this book, and in her own life has taken the principles of excellent poker playing, and you apply that to all the decisions that you make. And she said, one of the things that poker players do, but actually all of us do, as well is when things go right we tend to take the credit. And so like in a poker hand, when you when you’re like, Oh, it’s because I’m a good player. But when things go wrong, we tend to blame someone else, or we tend to blame just bad luck in general. And that’s what happens in poker, you can imagine, like, oh, shoot, like I did everything I was supposed to do. And I still lost, it’s just bad luck. But in life as well, we’re relatively quick to point fingers. And so this book does an excellent job helping individuals think through decision making. But it also points out that it can be a constructive exercise to really like think through who you are, think through where some of the deficits are. So when you are engaging in any sort of planning or any sort of decision making, that you’re aware of where those gaps may be, and that helps you make better decisions, but it also gives you areas to reinforce. And so that is really why we’re having this conversation is because we have to if we intend on growing we have to be self-reflective. And like I said, that’s that’s self-reflective process is strengthened when you have someone to do it with.

Rosanna 7:37
Well, one thing I think is funny is that just as humans we like naturally tend to want to hide and are afraid of admitting like our faults or failures and our shortcomings. And now now this example is not one that’s like, Okay, this is like a fault. But like, have you ever like fallen asleep watching a movie, like we fall in this one of us has fallen asleep watching a movie, but the other person is still awake? And then you look over and be like, Are you asleep? And what’s the first thing you say? No, no, no, no sleeping? Like,

Jordan 8:01
Why do we even do that?

Rosanna 8:02
Why can’t we just say, like, why can’t we own who we are? The fact that we’re exhausted and that this movie is boring, and that, like we couldn’t keep our eyes open. But like, right away, we’ll be like, I wasn’t sleeping. Or like, you know, same thing like, babe, you’re snoring? I’m not, you know, you know, like, why can’t we just admit it? So I think part of it is just like, knowing who we are. And none of us are perfect. But I think for me, and maybe it’s I don’t know, if it’s just to me or women in general, we want to like portray this idea of being perfect of having it all together, like, Oh, yeah, you’re the she’s such a good mom and be like, what, what are you basing that off of what you see on my Instagram feed, I’m not posting me melting down or the kids melting down. You know, it’s just it’s what what you think you see. And so this obsession with us wanting to be perfect, or thinking that we need to have it all together all of the time that we can’t own the fact that we have some areas we need to work on if we if we want to be better.

Jordan 8:58
Yeah, I think that’s a much better story to tell. So I mean, in a sense, there’s a story that we want others to believe about us. But that applies to ourselves. There’s a story we want to believe about ourselves as well, which is why we’re quicker to cover over and deny our faults rather than address them.

Rosanna 9:14
Yeah. Well, and I think this was recently, you told me something like, not that we were arguing by any means, but you like pointed out something and I was very quick to like, nip what you said. And then I remember like walking away and kind of like processing, like the conversation that we had. And I was like, Oh, he was really right. And I kind of just ended the conversation because I didn’t want to be told that like I was wrong or that I like overstepped and and I remember coming back to you, I mean, the same day, maybe 20 minutes later and be like, you know, I shouldn’t have said that. Like you were actually right. And I felt hurt by it because I didn’t want to admit to myself that I was wrong. And so that is not something you know, five months ago or five years ago that I would have done I would have like kind of brooded over it for a while and been mad at you for a little bit, you know? Yeah, yeah. But you know, that natural tendency of like feeling like because somebody else points something out about us like, we’re the ones that are hurt when maybe what we’re doing is hurting the other person. So just being able to listen and process.

Jordan 10:17
Yeah. Alright, so let’s get to the fun. So each list is…

Rosanna 10:22
Your idea of fun and my idea of fun are a little different.

Jordan 10:25
There has to be a dose of discomfort with with your fun, I think. All right. So, we we have our list here of our list of three for ourselves. Would you care to go first? Or would you care to go second?

Rosanna 10:39
I will let you choose.

Jordan 10:42
Then I’d say you go first. Okay, ladies, First Ladies first.

Rosanna 10:46
All right. So if I had to say what one of my faults or shortcomings is, I think the first thing I would say is that I am uptight.

Jordan 10:56
What do you mean by that?

Rosanna 10:57
Okay, so I feel like I’ve called myself this a couple times, like the momager, which they call I’ve mentioned, like they call you, right? Like I manage our kids, our house, our calendar, our lives, the laundry, the groceries, meal, prepping, you know, just where everybody has to be like logistics. And so like, I’m always so like, focused on like, what needs to happen and when and how and like, Okay, a little laundry has to go. And now because soccer socks have to be cleaned for tomorrow. And like I’m constantly my mind is always so busy. And so focused on what needs to get done, that it’s hard for me to let go.

Jordan 11:32
Okay. Okay, so this is an I found this too – there’s a thin line between strengths and weaknesses. And I think that that line is just I would, I would just define it as excess. So really, what you’re describing is a strength in the sense that you are, you know, the logistics coordinator of the household and of many other things. And that that’s necessary, right? And that’s a strength – things are organized. We were never scrambling last minute for something. Those are good things, right?

Rosanna 12:00
We’re always prepared, right? And this is what I said in my notes. I said, so here’s what’s good about this,. Like when you’re type A, like, everything runs very smoothly here. Everything is very efficient. Nobody ever forgets a lunch or a soccer practice or like everybody is where they need to be and has what they need all of the time. Here’s what’s bad about it is that sometimes I’m so focused on the task, or making sure that there are no deficits that I am not living in the moment and enjoying it. And I think the area I see it most I sometimes see it with the kids because I’m like so focused on like getting them in the car and on time and that baba baba baba baba, that, like I, there are some tender moments that I miss, because I’m too fixated on the end result and not the means on the way.

Jordan 12:44
I’ve heard. Some people are described as like task oriented people and others are people oriented people. And I think you’re good at both. But when this facet of your personality, maybe kind of runs a little bit excessively, then you’re much more focused on the task, and you miss out on the personable moments along the way.

Rosanna 13:04
Right. And people would describe me as personable, but those are in moments where like, I am not managing anything else. And I’m like supposed to be personable. I’m probably one of the most personable people. But when I have to…second to you. But when the two mix, what takes over is this like management mentality. And although I see that with the kids, sometimes I think I see it with you most. I am unable to relax, my mind is always like, like 15 head steps ahead of where I’m at. So sometimes it’s hard for me to let go.

Jordan 13:39
Sometimes I mean, we have it’s a most of our time together is of quality. But sometimes it’s like, Alright, let’s have an intimate conversation. Okay. All right. So tomorrow at 8:30 I have a quote, timeout. This is not my idea of an intimate conversation, but there’s there’s some necessity along with that, too.

Rosanna 13:55
So and so that’s something to that I think. I love my mom, I think I’d bring up like every third episode, but she is someone who kind of helps me see that too when she says things like you do more in the first three hours of your day than some people accomplish in a week. So give yourself some grace. And like take a moment to breathe or take a moment to do nothing. And so more and more each week I try and find those moments where I’m just okay like the bathroom if it doesn’t get cleaned today. It’ll get clean tomorrow and if it’s not tomorrow and it’s next week Thursday, so be it ain’t nobody coming over and using my bathroom upstairs no one can see the state of it except for me so like to take some of that pressure off of the to do.

Jordan 14:39
Yeah. Okay. All right. I will I will go into my list here.

Rosanna 14:45
It’s folded. He’s he’s keeping it private.

Jordan 14:47
No. You already looked at this. So there’s nothing private about this. Yeah, I’m just not sure where to start here. Okay, mine. I’ll pick this one because I think this is this is similar, but it goes in a different direction for me. So I’m more of I would just say I can be, I can be a thinker, which will, I think, caused me to there’s many moments where it requires action. And it requires like a response. And I’m in the moment, but because my, my default is to, like take a step back to try to think to try to absorb to try to understand. And I would say that, that that can be a strength that in some cases, but many other cases, I’ve missed so many opportunities where something should have been said or something should have been done. And I think it also leads to I would call it like this analysis paralysis as well, where I mean, how many things have i have i just like endlessly like thought through or like even even studied or read about and then there’s no no action that takes place? Or if it does happen, and happens well after the fact?

Rosanna 16:04
I mean, yeah, I mean, I’ve seen you do that. Because you are, well, what’s one of the terms we’ve used to describe you through the years? Cerebral. You’re just like a thinker, and you’re very smart, and you’re very inquisitive, and you want all of the information in front of you, and you want to weigh it equally, but that takes a whole lot of time. Which is the opposite of me, because I’m a responder like someone says something, I think about it, I process it, I like spit it out. So what’s good about that, for the two of us is that both of us aren’t like always responding right away, one of one of us kind of steps back and…

Jordan 16:39
That could be a little volatile. Yeah, right. So I can’t think of I mean, I think the the humorous example is when you’re in a moment, and like, somebody makes you mad, and you don’t say anything, but then like in the shower the next day, then you think of the thing that you want to say, like, Oh, you know what, I should have told that guy, you know? That is that is that is you know, my many moments my life, like, in a nutshell, where there’s there’s things where I’m like, Oh, I I should have said this, I should have responded this way. And and but instead of doing that to felt like I wanted to, there’s just more processing that I needed to take place. What if I’m wrong? What if I don’t know the full story? And then I miss step and make a bigger fool of myself. So it’s like, I’m not gonna say anything. I’m not gonna do anything at this moment. I will later but only after I put the requisite time and effort into making sure I get it right.

Rosanna 17:31
So how do you feel like you’re working to like combat that at this point? Like, you know that like, you like you’re, you’re, you’re overthinking paralyzes you from doing. Do you feel like you take that your Look, you’re working on steps to like, take more action in a quicker amount of time and not worry about the like, being right, but like responding so that the moment doesn’t pass by and then that like that chance is gone?

Jordan 17:58
I’m not really sure what to do. I mean, it’s so strong of a default that. To me, it’s kind of the same thing now like how how do we understand myself in this mode? Sure. What should I study to help me?

Rosanna 18:09
Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness, can you stop? That’s awful!

Jordan 18:13
Right. But what what, what do you do? I mean, if if the default is overthinking, how do I how do I not think my way out of it?

Rosanna 18:24
Oh, gosh, I don’t know. But do you see how good you see how that fault or shortcoming whatever however you want to, and it’s not a fault, because to think something through so thoroughly to make a correct decision is a great thing.

Jordan 18:38
Right? It can be an asset on many occasion.

Rosanna 18:40
Correct. But do you think you’ve, you’ve seen that brought to light in in your career path? And how that has hindered you or helped you in various paths? Right?

Jordan 18:51
Yeah, I would say so. Because there’s a lot of instances that come up that kind of require a response. And so I don’t feel I don’t feel in control enough to even if I do give a response, I doubt if that is the correct thing to have done. And I think that that doubt becomes visible becomes evident. And, you know, I’m calling into question what I’ve done, and I need to go back and process that and then maybe, maybe I can support that decision after the fact. But within the moment, as I’m thinking through it with with others it it just, it feels uncomfortable to be in that position for me.

Rosanna 19:28
So do you think it’s been helpful to be in more positions like that to stretch you out of like, letting those scenarios paralyze you? And like, almost like sharpening that, that tool of like having to respond or does it just make you so uncomfortable that you want to remove yourself from situations like that?

Jordan 19:45
I don’t know, because like we’re saying like it, it can be a strength in many instances as well. So I think it’s just becoming more cognizant of when it should be leveraged and when I need to just kind of you know, just run with my gut and be okay with it.

Rosanna 20:05
So should we go back to me then back to you? Okay, so back to me. So I think this one is kind of related to what you’re talking about where you’ll kind of just stop and you’ll like, think for a while and then and then come up with the proper response based on all of this thinking and analysis. I would say my second fault and shortcoming is that I have a very short fuse. And honestly, like, very like, I’m like this like very heated person, but of the two of us, right, like in like, parenting? Who’s gonna be the one that’s gonna yell at the kids? It’s totally me. Like, it takes very little for me to be like, call you out, shut you down. You’re done.

Jordan 20:48
Yeah, I don’t, then yeah, that happens. But I don’t see that as a flaw necessarily. Like, like, I would consider I would describe you kind of like this, this one of those quick like, passing summer storms, where you got to put up with a little thunder and lightning along the way. But ultimately, like it you you saturate the the earth with your water, and it passes and the sun comes out pretty quickly afterwards, as well.

Rosanna 21:17
Oh, that makes me feel very, so much better about how I feel about I think, you know,

Jordan 21:23
But I never have to wonder what you’re thinking. It’s like, here it is.

Rosanna 21:28
There’s a crack of thunder. A bolt of lightning.

Jordan 21:29
Okay, now I know. Yeah.

Rosanna 21:34
I’ve kind of we’ve talked about this a little bit in like, just how, like, I respond in other episodes. But I think as a mom, you know, I spend a lot of time with our kids, I’m mostly home with them. I do work, but it’s, you know, weekends or even, you know, evenings. And so I do a lot of the child rearing. So like on a on a day where it’s a 12 hour day with the kids. Yeah, I mean, like, right, you’re, you’re there to correct and admonish, and sometimes punish your kids in order to train them what is right and what is wrong, and what expectations are, and when they’re loud. And you have to be louder to kind of like, get their attention. But that’s something that I worry about, in the sense that, like, people will see me with my kids. And we have fun, and we do great things. And I’m intentional with them people like Oh, she’s the perfect mom, like, you know, they think I’m, you know, some kind of Disney Princess and the birds are, you know, they fold my clothes in the morning for me, and everything is great. You know, being a mom is hard. And it’s I think anybody that’s a mom knows that you’re not happy 100% of the time, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows, but I think that’s hard for me to know that, like, I have to, like, that’s part of like who I am. And that’s part of like, I don’t know, that’s part of who I am, which I’m trying to work on. I’m trying to be like more Zen in the moment. And you’re I mean, you’re so good with the kids for a variety of reasons.

Jordan 22:55
Oh yeah. I never yell. Never blow a gasket.

Rosanna 22:57
Well, I mean, you do but take a take takes more for you than it does for me, but you’re like, you know, you’re you will, you will verbally like talk them through the scenario and the decision they made and how that’s wrong in this like, very calm manner. And so like, I observe that and I’m like, okay, like, I need to do more of that, like, maybe that’s more of the approach that I need to take, like, I can still be a good you know, I’m, I’m a good mom as I am. But I could be better if I took a more like gentle approach. And then there are times where the kids are not at all responding to the gentle approach. And I feel like I have to yell to get their attention. So you know, it’s a it’s a double-edged sword. So here I am publicly saying that I yell at my kids. Yeah. And that’s like, hard for me to want to admit because as we said before, like, not that I’m trying to pretend that I’m perfect, but like, you know, that’s hard for me to say that.

Jordan 23:52
Yeah. Well, I think there’s been multiple moments where I’ve seen the I’ve seen the storm begin to rumble and I’ve tried…

Rosanna 24:03
Take shelter!

Jordan 24:06
I’ve tried to quell it just be like, we’re saying, like, this is not the issue or This is not the time to, you know, to go there then maybe more grumbled towards me then then towards them at that instance, or whatever else might be going on. But I think that’s one thing that can you know, it can be that that voice to just be like, Alright, like, here’s, here’s what’s going on. Let’s remember this conversation and try to recalibrate.

Rosanna 24:31
And we had talked about this in that last last episode, that like piece of accountability. Like, I feel like this is something that I want to work on. I’ve told you that and you’ve done that where you like, look at me be like, this is you know, their boys and that’s what’s helpful to like, how a mom would respond to like what boys are doing, which does not make sense to me. You know, you are a You are a man, you were a boy, you’re like, Oh no, this is like a totally normal thing. This is nothing to like get upset about. So it’s, you know, when there’s a little bit of accountability There, it’s like you can help me like, understand and process something so that I don’t kind of give into that fault or to that shortcoming that I see. And you’re like, Okay, I’m kind of like train me up a little bit.

Jordan 25:11
Yeah. Okay. Challenge accepted. Just don’t shoot the messenger.

Rosanna 25:17
All right. What’s number two, I want to see what what else you’ve got.

Jordan 25:21
I actually have so we’re supposed to choose three, I had a, I wrote down more than three. So now I have to select here. You You won’t be at all surprised by this. But this this bothers me about me. And one thing, I think I’ve improved on…

Rosanna 25:37
I feel like nothing bothers you. If there’s a fault, it’s that nothing bothers you. You’d like such a cool cucumber all the time.

Jordan 25:43
This? Well, this bothers me about me. And I don’t think you’ll be surprised when I mention it. But I think because I like to maybe stemming off of the first one where I’d like to think through things and kind of come to my own assessment of whatever the topic is. I do have a strong propensity to think I know what is right. Right. Yeah, look in your face. It’s like, yeah, totally.

Rosanna 26:10
I don’t know what you’re talking about. This is news to me.

Jordan 26:13
And it’s, you know, in part, because I have poured in many instances, but not all, you know, poured a lot of time and energy into like examining a particular topic or an issue or just ruminated on enough to develop a strong opinion about, you know, whatever it is. And so when someone has something that’s different, I, even if it’s like a neutral subject, where they just do something differently, like sometimes I can look a tad askance at their…

Rosanna 26:45
Your choice of diction during these patterns are just uncanny.

Jordan 26:48
Yeah. So. And that, that bothers me about myself, because I would prefer not to have that. I don’t know what you would call like that, that kind of wiring, that way of thinking, that is even just internally like just wondering if what this other person is saying what this other person is doing is, you know, up to par, because in most cases, like, it just doesn’t matter doesn’t affect me, it doesn’t mean anything. But I wouldn’t say I’m a super judgmental person. But I think there are many moments where just internally I’m thinking to myself, like, that’s not the way I would do it. And I love being around people who are just not that way. And I feel like most people are, are not that way, where you just totally comfortable around them, you feel like 100%, like, just accepted by them and loved by them, like regardless of who you are. And I’m grateful everyone who just accepts and hangs out with me. So I think that that’s, that’s one area that I’ve I’ve been conscious of for a long time. And I’ve tried to just consciously like, correct my own thinking.

Rosanna 27:55
So you’re saying that you’re too judgmental of others? Is a flaw is one of your flaws? Because, okay, I mean, I feel like to some extent, we’re all like that, oh, that’s how she did it. That’s not how I would have done it, like, great. Like, don’t we have to write anybody who’s who does something different than us? I would say, I bet. I bet most people could agree, to some extent as one of their faults is being judgmental of others. But I feel like as I’ve gotten older, and as our like, friends and family have become more diverse, I think it becomes easier to like, accept differences, because not everyone is just like you. And so you see a variation of things where people are still good. And they may hold the same values, but their, the way they display them or like the way they –

Jordan 28:47
Just the way they think or the way that they can run life, right?

Rosanna 28:50
The values are the same, but like their life may look different. So so it’s not it’s not that you’re judging them, you’re like, oh, hmm, we can think the same things or have the same values or beliefs, but like, the way you live your life is very different than ours, because, you know, you’ve chosen to orient it this way. And I think that’s good to see that it doesn’t have to all look one way but that the values and beliefs are similar.

Jordan 29:14
That’s what I was gonna say is the the antidote is exposure to like more diversity when if you’re around people who the majority of whom do things just like you, then you may be feel more comfortable around them. But at the same time, when someone is outside of that circle in any regard, then that’s it’s gonna look strange. But if you’re around a lot of people who I guess look strange, in a sense, then it stops really being a thing, and you don’t have to think about it.

Rosanna 29:42
Well, I think what I found is by hanging out with people who are different than you, what I’m always surprised by is although they may look different than you, so whether that’s you know, for a variety of reasons. To the core, we’re so similar and that’s like what always, like, there’s like this wow moment every time where I’m like, we couldn’t be any more different yet. We are the same. Yeah. So it’s kind of cool. Yeah. Total tangent there. But –

Jordan 30:10
No I think it’s right on, right on point.

Rosanna 30:12
All right. So then are we at number three? Okay, so number three, I would say, I’m very critical about myself. And I think that’s a fault that I’ve been working on, more recently, to correct. Because I think I would say like the last year and a half to two years, I feel like I was letting how I perceived myself hold me back from what I’m capable of. Like, I would give myself excuses for why I couldn’t do certain things. Because I didn’t have a good enough perception of maybe like, who I was, or where maybe there was some, like, actual talent or good that I could be using, because I was kind of like, afraid of who I am. It was hard for me to acknowledge my strengths, it was hard of me to be proud of the good things about me, when I spent like, a big part of my life not loving myself for who I was, because I was always focused on trying to be like somebody else. So I think working on trying to do things outside of the box, has given me like the tools to like, really grow this last year and be like, okay, these are, these are things I’m good at, these are things I’m not good at, like, I’m gonna be okay with what I’m good at, I’m gonna work at what I’m not good at. And if people like me, then that’s fine. But at this point, I finally feel like I like who I am. Yeah. And I like what I see. But for a really long time, like, I let my own kind of critical voice in my head keep me from trying things because I thought I wasn’t good enough to do them.

Jordan 31:47
Yeah. I think we all have that voice. And it’s just what volume do we allow it to be turned up? And how much, how much do we listen to it?

Rosanna 31:56
Well, I think for a long time, for me, it had to do more with my appearance, where it wasn’t like comfortable, or I thought like I should look different, or you know –

Jordan 32:05
I’ve always been comfortable with your appearance.

Rosanna 32:06
– weight, or like health or like lack thereof over we’ve been together a long time been together, how many years 20, 21, 22 and then get married for 14. And so obviously, through that time, I’ve had kids, so we’ve gained weight, we’ve lost weight. And so you know, looking at yourself and kind of not recognizing who you are, like, takes a little bit of like a mental emotional toll on you. Because when you’re not comfortable with how you look, you’re also not comfortable around other people. And what’s interesting is that no matter what I looked like to you, like to you I always looked fine. And I don’t want to say like fine, like, okay, you look fine. Like you’ve always loved me –

Jordan 32:48
You always looked like you. You always looked beautiful. Like it never really seems to fluctuate with a number on scale.

Rosanna 32:52
You really couldn’t keep your hands off me, it didn’t really matter. But to me, it mattered. And there were times where like that kept, you know, just kind of wanted to recoil because I was not comfortable with myself. But then I let that kind of carry over into other realms where like, I should have been trying and doing different things, but I let like my discomfort with my appearance keep me from putting myself out there.

Jordan 33:16
Yeah. Yeah.

Rosanna 33:18
I think that’s the girl thing that sometimes you don’t understand. Like, when I talk about things with, you know, things, things in the woman realm. He’s like, I just really can’t connect to this right now. Like, I know that I’m your best friend. But like you said, maybe you should like talk to your, uh, your friend or your mom about this, because this just is not computed in guy world.

Jordan 33:37
I can understand it logically. But yeah, I mean, that can be a struggle, but I think in terms of appearance, they say that women will tend to, like see themselves like, lesser than what they are. And men will tend to think they’re more attractive than what they really are.

Rosanna 33:54
Well we’ve had this conversation. As you get ready in the mirror and you’re like “I was looking at myself today when I was brushing my hair, and I thought MAN I look good!”

Jordan 33:59
And I thought checking myself. Yes, so lucky. Yeah. But I think that – I think appearance is one aspect of that but I think for you and I think for the typical person, there’s many areas where we have just this critical voice that tells us not to or I think especially now we compare ourselves to other people, or usually other people’s highlight reels. And that is going to make that voice a little bit louder and keep us from shining in the ways that we could be. Alright, I’ve got my third one here. Alright, so this I guess this kind of goes along with the other two but it’s another another facet of it. I am what I would call a simmerer. Alright, so if you’re if you’re the storm, that that that you know, it explodes and then it passes then I’m more like the the boiling pot of water on the stove. And many times when something bothers me you know my response is, like “everything’s fine.” I’m that person in this relationship like, Oh no, nothing’s wrong, everything’s great. What? But what I’ve, what I’ve realized is that like, while I might in other regards my life like just kind of brood over a topic until I feel like I have a sense of control over it when I’m feeling frustrated or annoyed or disappointed or like whatever that negative is, then I’m just going to internalize it and brood over it until it actually becomes bigger than it ever really needed to be. I know you agree, I guessed it, we should have come up with a prize if we guessed what the other person –

Yeah it’s like the Newlywed Game, right, you got to like hold up the sign. And if they match, you get points. Okay. Um, yeah, that’s exactly what I had for you.

Well, shoot, I had other ones on my list, I should have should have brought those out. Okay, well, let’s, let’s explore this one. And if we have time, then we can get into some other other faults and flaws. Okay. So I think it’s because like, for me, I want, I don’t want to feel negative about anything. And I and I often don’t. So like, I’d say, 90, some percent of the time, I’m happy go lucky. So when these feelings do come in, for whatever reason, I feel like I want to I almost don’t want to admit that that’s the case. I don’t want to admit that there’s something that has come up that I think has gone wrong, or has disappointed me in some way. And so I’ll just internalize it so that I can like almost like own that feeling a little bit more. And I feel like if I express it, then it I don’t know, I almost don’t feel justified in feeling that way. Like because if I look at the everything that I have –

Rosanna 36:44
Because you don’t want to judge somebody else.

Jordan 36:46
Yeah. And I don’t want to judge somebody else or disappoint someone else by letting them know like, how they have let me down or you know, just like whatever is annoyed me so but I don’t feel just been having that feeling. So I almost want to reason myself out of it. But it backfires every time like for years. The the more you keep it in the the worst said it kind of spoils everything.

Rosanna 37:09
Yeah, I mean, we’ve had this conversation. I’ve had this conversation, we’ve had this conversation multiple times where it’s like, you could have just told me in the moment that that upset you. So then what I do is I basically follow him around the house for days being like, Hey, babe, everything, okay? And then he says, I even wrote on my sheet, oh, I’m fine. I’m fine. And then I wrote, he sits and he stews, and then I hear about it well, after the fact, when it’s too late. And like, I can’t even apologize in that moment because he’s stood on it so long. He’s actually more aggravated now than he was three days ago. And then like, there’s nothing I can do.

Jordan 37:47
If it’s about you, I’m more aggravated that you haven’t figured it out in the meantime, because your powers of, you know, telepathy –

Rosanna 37:54
But I know what the problem is. But I asked him, Hey, everything, because I need him to I say, he’s a great communicator. Like he has a blog, he writes articles, he has a podcast, but for some reason, he cannot find the words to say, I’m disappointed because or it upset me when you said this because… it’s it’s one sentence with a period for me to be like, Okay, I’m really sorry, I said, but he, for some reason, cannot find the one sentence but he will write a multi paragraph thesis and post it on the internet.

Jordan 38:28
Sure. Well, that’s, I’m not expressing my disappointment towards anyone in those either. So I have two questions for you. One is, do you think that I’ve improved in this regard over the last few years? I’m better at communicating –

Rosanna 38:42
You’ve definitely got better in communicating. We talked about those Monday nights, or like couch and together dates. And I think that was huge for us, because there was an intentional time where we could talk about anything. And so sometimes it was work, or sometimes it was, you know, just other topics. And you were just, it was like this practice of you like just communicating a feeling associated with like, what was going on and you are processing what was in your mind out loud, which seemed to help catapult you out of kind of like being in your head and making a decision about moving forward.

Jordan 39:15
Because I’ve tried to be better about it. My other question and this is kind of a weird one. But sometimes it’s hard to say something so like, what are your thoughts on just maybe not just for us, but for like your typical couple, like, what are your thoughts on like, expressing some kind of like this may or some negative feeling through like a text or through an email or through like something that is and has a little bit more space built into it? Do you think that that is a good idea or bad?

Rosanna 39:46
That’s interesting you say that because you’re I mean, you hate when people text like, I’m texting back and forth with someone He’s like, you’re totally reading into that. That’s not what she meant. And you should if you want to talk to someone, you should call them. Yeah, not even call them. You should talk to them face to face. So it’s interesting that you bring that up. But I think if it’s hard for you to find the words, or it’s right, like, it’s too confrontational for you, I don’t know that I would send a text. But I mean, if it’s a spouse, like a little note, Hey, sorry, I was in a bad mood last night, I did get a little upset when this happened. So it’s like, at least it’s like, okay, I can acknowledge that this happened –

Jordan 40:20
You almost need like a template. And I can just print it out, fill in the blank lines with whatever I’m putting in the take home folder for the mom to read and to hear the printer going, like, oh, shoot, I can, I’m gonna get another note.

Rosanna 40:32
That like how like telegrams used to come through with like – . So I mean, but if that’s a tool that works, but –

Jordan 40:40
We almost have to agree, I’m like what would work. Because I don’t that then I don’t want someone to be insulted either. And say, like, –

Rosanna 40:45
Are you afraid to tell me because you think I’m gonna yell at you? Or, but it’s more about you. And I feel like we’re talking about yelling, like, people are gonna think I’m this dragon lady that’s just always yelling.

Jordan 40:56
No, I mean, it has nothing to do with you. And I think with other people, too, you know, just depending on the type of relationship, like it can be hard to bring up something in a way which you were, you know, hurt or offended or disappointed, because then I feel like I’m going to like, put those feelings on this other person, and then they’re going to be hurt and offended or disappointed. And that doesn’t seem very productive. So like, if I can just stomach this and move on maybe that would be better. And maybe in some cases, so it depends on what it is. But most of the time it needs to be articulated.

Rosanna 41:31
Right. The toothpate in the sink. Just clean it up. But I think honesty is probably the best policy. Yeah.

Jordan 41:39
All right. So

Rosanna 41:41
So your last one was what I had guessed, or what I had said for you. So the only unfinished unresolved thing here at about 43 minutes, okay, is a fault of mine that you see that you would like to call out publicly? Okay.

Jordan 41:57
Well, let me consult my list here. I only get one?

Rosanna 42:02
Number seventy-two says….

Jordan 42:05
I’m kidding. I did. Alright, so I know, you totally picked up this list. So I there’s one that I didn’t write down, that you actually came up a little bit earlier on. So we can talk about what I wrote down here later on. But I think this one will be more interesting too. It actually has to do with the subject of our conversation today. So I think you are, I’m just gonna put it out there.

Rosanna 42:28
I think, like, so worried right now,

Jordan 42:30
I think you’re very bad at taking feedback.

Rosanna 42:33
I am very bad at taking feedback.

Jordan 42:37
Because I know and so sometimes I don’t want to say anything because I like your, your first reaction can be like, almost like to like nip back. So if I say like hey, Rosanna, like, this is what I’m seeing. And then I know, like the like the, whatever I just said, it’s Yeah, it’s gonna be like reflected back to me. And it’ll be, you know, it’ll be like, you know, my fault or how it’s like, I’m equally guilty in some regard. And so I think we’ve talked about that, too, because it’s almost comical, like, I’m like, I knew you’re gonna say that, but actually listen to what I said. And –

Rosanna 43:10
And I knew that I was gonna do that. But like, that’s, but that’s like, my initial like, disposition where like, it’s like, I have so much, almost like shame. Yeah, like, whereas like, I, I don’t want to be told that I am not who I’m supposed to be. And so my natural inclination is to like play defense. And then reflect it back at you. So it’d be like, okay, you’re also not perfect.

Jordan 43:37
But I will say this to our I, maybe I should rephrase this, you’re not really bad at taking feedback. In the initial moment you are prone to respond that way. But I think, like over over time, maybe over the course of a few minutes, or a day or a week, then you, you do like, think about it. And then we have, I think a more productive conversation afterwards. About what you know, whatever it was. So I guess in that regard, like you’re really good at it, it’s maybe just if we could just skip that first step where we’re defensive.

Rosanna 44:13
You get the storm. And then after it comes the cool rain you you wish we could just skip to the cool rain that nourishes as opposed to the –

Jordan 44:21
Yeah, yeah, something like that. So, you know, I want to bring that up, too. Because I know we’ve talked about that. And I think that you’re I think you’re aware of it, and you’ve you’ve grown in that regard. And for me, like I’m not even, you know, like fazed by your response. Sometimes I’m like, Alright, I just, oh, well, we’ll get through this portion ot the response, and then I know the good stuff is coming.

Rosanna 44:44
Well, and I think it’s the same way with the I’m fine. It’s, I have to ask the question. I think it’s like a minimum of like, 37 times over the course of four days to move past the I’m fine to what the actual problem is, or was. And so like, it’s just several days of I’m fine before I get the answer. And knowing that about you, and what you know about me, like, helps us work through it. But maybe we could be a little more efficient by being a little more honest and a little bit more open in those regards and a little more vulnerable in the moment instead of after the moment.

Jordan 45:17
So we appreciate all of you listening to Rosanna and I have this this session, where we’re open with one another and open with you as well. And it is, I think, a productive, even, you know, quasi therapeutic exercise to be involved in with one another.

Rosanna 45:36
Yeah, and I think I really think the takeaway here, if there is, one is that we can’t be so afraid of admitting our mistakes and missteps, that we’re reluctant to change. Because even in our last episode, we talked about like in the world that we are in and the relationships here and we have to continue to move forward. And in order to do that, like there needs to be growth. And in order to grow, you have to be able to acknowledge what isn’t working to make it work. So I still cannot believe that we had this conversation, I still cannot believe that I am admitting like these faults publicly for people that we know and don’t know to be like, Oh, they really don’t have it all together. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows and puppies at their house.

Jordan 46:15
Well that’s one of the reasons I thought it would be good to do this episode too. So like, I don’t want people to get the wrong idea. And think like, Oh, they they have it all together because of this reason or that reason –

Rosanna 46:24
Or we know them and we know they don’t have it all together yet, thety’re pretending that they do.

Jordan 46:28
So I think that’s the case of like, let’s let’s let’s kind of engage in this with one another, but also show people that it’s okay to have this kind of conversation. So no one puts us on a pedestal not that they should, but that we all are kind of in the same boat of like just being human, and acknowledging that we all have ways that we can grow. One of the pieces of feedback too, is that I don’t think that we have to I think engaging in the self reflection is important. But I also think it’s helpful to ask for feedback, as well. So maybe there’s a spouse or relatives or colleagues, all of whom know you to a certain extent and can probably, if requested, like share, some maybe very enthusiastically, some of the the flaws or shortcomings you may have, and I think it should be part of our regular exercise to request that feedback so that we can always remain cognizant of where we want to try to double down and reinforce who we are.

Rosanna 47:24
Well, and maybe you don’t have to say it as what are Can you please list for me my faults and shortcomings maybe like, What are some areas I could work on to strengthen who I am? Something a little more positive.

Jordan 47:36
Right? Yeah. How are you choose to phrase it.

Rosanna 47:37
Areas of improvement. Well, thank you for joining us for this episode. I hope it was helpful for you for your relationships and even for how you see yourself moving forward as we continue to grow in the year 2020, the one that is unprecedent unprecedented like any other.

Jordan 47:55
Absolutely. Thanks for joining us today, everybody. Bye.

 

Rosanna
Welcome to Episode 12: Face-to-face and side-by-side. Can you believe that we are already in Episode 12?

Jordan
Episode 12 already, baby.

Rosanna
That is the last episode of season one. So thank you to all of you guys who have been listening along the way who have you who have been sharing our posts on social media who have been tagging friends to listen, have been recommending this to people. We really appreciate all of your support, and we look forward to what’s coming ahead and season two.

Jordan
That’s right. So this is only the last episode in season one. Season two is already in the works and we’re excited about a lot of the things that the relentless pursuit will bring to you. So here’s the plan just so you know where we’re headed, is at the end of season one we’re here in September, we are going to take a four week break and come back with Season two after those four weeks. So we’re going to go dark just for a few weeks, hang in there. And then you’ll see everything come live for season tw.

Rosanna
But not completely dark. We’ll still be uploading, or uploading posts to our blog and to our website. You can get information there and to our social media, you can kind of see what we’re working on as we start to develop season two. Alright, last week, if you listened to Episode 11, we were talking about looking at faces and not devices and we ended with a screen challenge. So if you want to know how we did on our week long screen challenge of social distancing ourselves from our phones and our devices, and being more present in the moment, head on over to TheRelentlessPursuitPodcast and click on our blog and on there you will find both Jordan’s account and my account of how we think it went, lessons learned and maybe some fumbles along the way.

Jordan
Yeah, it hasn’t been an easy challenge. But it’s, it’s, I’m grateful for it because it’s already made me more mindful of our relationship to our screens versus our relationships to the people around us. So plenty of good reflections and hopefully you guys will get a chance to read our accounts, but also comment and share your own experiences as well.

Rosanna
All right, so are you ready for Episode 12?

Jordan
Episode 12. Here we go.

Rosanna
Alright, let’s dive in. Again, title, face-to-face and side-by-side.

Jordan
So I really like this phrase – face-to-face and side-by-side – because I think the reason why we wanted to share this on the podcast with you guys is because this denotes two approaches to your relationship with others. And I think most of our examples will entail your relationship to your spouse or significant other, but it really pertains to your friends, it pertains to other family members, or pertains to colleagues, it even pertains to you and your children. So we want you to keep all of those things in mind as we talk. So what does face by face or face-to-face and side-by-side mean? It really means what it says like you can develop your relationship in both of those manners. And it’s important to understand what both have to offer and maybe even few of the pitfalls about them too. So face-to-face represents you facing the other person, and in most cases in a literal sense, where your focus is that other person. So like right now, you and I are having a conversation, my focus is on you. And so I typically think of conversations where you’re talking to and you’re talking about one another as that face but face-to-face kind of approach to a relationship. A lot of times we do this like over a coffee or at a table with someone, you could also be on a walk with someone you don’t have to guess you don’t have to be literally face-to-face, but your focus at that time or during that engagement is on the other person. Side-by-side is you’re still with the other person, but picture yourself shoulder to shoulder with that person. And instead of making the other person your direct focus, the both of you are engaged in some kind of task or an activity that you’re sort of sharing this mutual experience together. And so what we want to talk about is really exploring what it really means to have both of those components in your relationship, why it’s important to have both and maybe some of the stronger ways but also addressing maybe those some of the weaker ways that those could be present in our various relationships.

Rosanna
I think younger Rosanna you know, idealistic thought that love was always face-to-face that it was always gazing at you looking at you. Spending time…

Jordan
That’s like the ideal, right? Right. If you just look at the other person and gaze into their eyes for eternity, that’s love.

Rosanna
Hold hands and like the hearts are like, you know, In the background around him, and it’s just this romantic

Jordan
“I could lay in your arms forever.”

Rosanna
Yes. I mean, when we were teenagers, right, that was kind of like that idea, like, what we wanted to do just hand in hand. And, you know, this idea of side-by-side is something that, you know, as we’ve grown older and wiser and more savvy, we realize how important side-by-side is. Because life does not allow us just to stop and gaze and everything else stops. The world is constantly moving. We’re constantly moving. And so to be side by side and moving forward together is a big part of a successful relationship.

Jordan
Yeah, I think of what we were doing with some of our date nights a little while back when we were trying to get out and we realized that the majority of our dates and they’re all very pleasant, but we would go and sit down at a restaurant or at a bar or in a coffee shop, and then we’d have a couple hours allocated to just talking. And most of the time, the conversation was really good and we had a chance to, like just luxuriate in the presence of one another and concentrate on one another, and a time there’s an ebb and flow to it. But then we started adding in activities as well, where we would go and do something new or have some sort of an engagement that we would entertain ourselves with, or, or go to go to work on something. And we have that shared experience that I think fueled the face-to-face. And I think the face-to-face fuels some of the side-by-side activities,

Rosanna
And even with those dates, the face-to-face and side-by-side, you know, even the most head over heels, couple people who love each other and love spending time together. I mean, let’s let’s pretend we’re all going to be married 65 years. At some point conversation is gonna run dry and I run out of you’re still running today. So being able to do things in the presence of one another and whether that’s like leisure, or hobbies or interests or building something together, there’s more of that like easy effortless friendship where you don’t have to come to the table with these like vulnerable things that you’re going to share with one another or this doting where it’s part of being with someone is the friendship that you build with them and being able to enjoy those things and have fun and be flirty and find commonality and find new interests together that continues to build and develop that relationship.

Jordan
Yeah. And I think about my relationship with other men as well. I think that there’s there’s a lot of face-to-face, but I think some of the strongest bonds are often built in side-by-side kind of activities, tutors, things that we get to do together. Like I would even comment on my relationship to your dad, I think we’ve we’ve always been friendly with one another since I met him when I was like 15. But I felt like there was kind of a turning point where we were just painting together, painting a bunch of rooms together. And we weren’t really talking much at all. Like there’s nothing much to talk about except like past me that roller and but throughout the course of that project I felt by the end of it, we had done something together and accomplish something together. And it didn’t really require a lot of words, there’s a different kind of bond that’s formed when you’re working on something.

Rosanna
Sure there’s that like level of trust, that level of understanding, even understanding how someone works or operates like, I’m sure the way that you approached a painting a room and never having done it before. And my dad maybe even like teaching you like that aspect of the relationship was little like imparting that wisdom where he feels like needed. And then same thing like you being able to listen to him because my dad is not like this, like deep and vulnerable person, but sharing experiences with him, whether it’s painting a room or going with us to the zoo with the kids or to Santa’s Village, like, just that proximity in that presence is big for him. And so that helps build your relationship together. And then even just the funny things that come out of those experiences

Jordan
And we have stories to tell afterwards, too.

Rosanna
Right, those stories kind of help move you forward. So I think that’s interesting. And I think it’s interesting too with our kids, a lot of times life with our kids is side-by-side where we’re literally with them holding their hand, right, like taking them places, going places.

Jordan
Yeah, we’re always trying to do activities with them or take them to whatever they’re signed up for whatever activity or sport they’re in.

Rosanna
Right, facilitating that. But now that the kids are older, finding experiences where we are face-to-face with them on a one on one basis, has proven to be very important at this stage in their lives. So with a 10, almost eight and almost six year old, they’re looking for that time and attention of one on one like telling us how they’re feeling or what they’re thinking about or even expressing their needs to us so that we know what those needs are and can help meet them. Which, you know, they’ve been little for so long and so to know that not only do you and I need face-to-face and side-by-side, but now with our children, we need to move forward in that as well.

Jordan
Yeah, let’s let’s explore some more questions for one another because I’m thinking through some of these these different avenues and already want to pick your brain about how to maybe be more conscientious and maximize these aspects of relationship building. Do you want to go first?

Rosanna
Now go first. Go ahead, put me on the spot.

Jordan
All right. What happens when you have too much of one and not enough of the other?

Rosanna
Oh, I don’t know. That’s a good question. I probably shouldn’t have said, I don’t know. I’m just trying to

Jordan
Actually I think, I think that’s the purpose of the conversation is to start from a point of not really knowing but at least challenging ourselves to come to a better understanding.

Rosanna
You know, I’m trying to think of like too many date nights, right? Where we’re just – right? We’re just face-to-face. And so I’m trying to picture a world where that’s that’s the case where it’s, it’s just that and I really do think we would be in the scenario where we would run out of things to say, at this point those things are coveted those face-to-face date nights, because the days are busy. And so we don’t get to talk about all of the things that we’re thinking about or feeling. The podcast has been great because we’re talking about these great deep topics that are kind of pushing us to grow. But if we didn’t have that, you know, we would probably be missing out and feel like we need some more of that, that face-to-face time. But what’s nice is when we’re able to be consistently talking to one another and consistently meaning like maybe once a week where we like really sit down and focus on each other. Sometimes when a date night opportunity comes up, it’s not about sitting down and staring at each other. It’s about having fun. I think it’s allowed us to want to do fun things together. So for Valentine’s Day, this past year, we could have gone to a romantic dinner or you know, done something that’s like the typical Valentine’s Day and we didn’t do that. What was your idea for Valentine’s Day this year?

Jordan
I think I want to go do something together. So I thought we, you know, we’ve both been doing like exercise and especially yoga for a little while. So we found a yoga place that happened to be open at a time that we could make it there. And we went and we did yoga together. And we had really no idea what we were signing up for ended up being a lot of fun, because it was Korean yoga or kind of a Korean like variation on yoga and a very small, like intimate setting where, you know, throughout that we were able to share an experience. Now we have a story to tell about some of the unique just kind of funny things that happened along the way. And I would not have regretted going and enjoying a nice meal with you. But this was just you know, something different enough that I think helps keep the relationship fresh, helps keep it growing, and gives us even some some things to talk about reinforces some of those, those face-to-face opportunities that we have down the road.

Rosanna
Yeah, and I think you know, being with someone for a while, or even being in a friendship for a while like it be It can become stagnant or predictable. And sometimes that’s what you need is kind of just like that little bit of invention to kind of, you know, get rid of the same old.

Jordan
And I think I think about parenting as maybe the biggest side-by-side kind of thing that we’re doing together, right? That’s a big responsibility. It’s a big task. It’s a major portion of our time. And I think that can be, no, sometimes the relationship becomes a little too lopsided on that end too. Where you’re, you’re working on something, whether it’s parenting or if you have a mutual project or business or something and it becomes all about like the side-by-side kind of management of the tasks that have to go on. And you stop – I think too much of that the means you stop enjoying that experience – and you stop enjoying each other too, because you’re not turning and pausing and enjoying the conversation, focusing on one another and tuning out the rest that’s going on around you.

Rosanna
Okay, so that reminds me of this quote, and it’s by the author of The Little Prince. And the quote is, and we this is actually this is a sign I bought –

Jordan
We have this on our wall.

Rosanna
It’s in our bedroom. And it says “Life has taught us that love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction.” And when I saw that at the store, it really like it struck me right away, because it reminded me of our relationship, that it’s not just about that lovey dovey stuff. And there’s plenty of that in our relationship, but that it is the two of us side-by-side, holding hands and looking out. But I think the really the most important part of this is it’s not just us holding hands and looking out, and you’re looking to the west, and I’m looking to the east and you’ve got your eyes on what you want, and I’ve got my eyes on what I want. And then we’re holding hands, but we’re both letting go and traveling in opposite directions. To me, what this really represents is that we’re holding hands, we’re looking out in the same direction and we’re focused and we’re moving equally together, driving forward. Meaning our values and our goals and our dreams are in check. And that your dreams are important to me. And I’m coming along with you. And my dreams are important to you and you’re spurring me on and and we’re pulling each other along and that it’s not that we’re going in opposite directions. It’s that we are in alignment and we’re purposefully moving forward.

Jordan
Yeah. And we have a mutual vision for how we want to conduct ourselves and move forward together in that way.

Rosanna
And that new mutual vision comes from that face-to-face. Because in face to face, not only is it romantic, face-to-face is also confrontational. And it’s also vulnerable. Okay, well, think about it, like in a work scenario, right? When you have a one on one with your boss, right? A couple things are gonna happen in that scenario, what are the couple things that are going to happen if you’re one on one with your boss?

Jordan
You’re gonna have a great conversation, probably a raise and a promotion.

Rosanna
Right. Okay. So there. You hope.

Jordan
Ideally but right it is off you know, it’s a often position and maybe like evaluation or accountability or report, it’s, I would say it’s job-oriented. It’s efficiency based.

Rosanna
Questions-based, even to right like how can you grow this is this is where I see you going. So like, it’s not always face-to-face. It’s not always romantic. Sure when our heads are on the pillows at night and we’re laughing about this or that or sure, like it’s, it’s sweet and it’s tender, but face-to-face –

Jordan
You’re not really looking for that from your boss or from the other face-to-face relations.

Rosanna
But if you’re looking at this across relationships, you know, a lot of gaining vision and being on the same page comes from that face-to-face comes from confrontation and vulnerability and being serious and honest. So face-to-face isn’t just always just happy go lucky love. Its face-to-face is where some of the hard work happens. So that when you’re side by side, you can move forward.

Jordan
Yeah. So do you have another question to piggyback off that?

Rosanna
How about this, how do you balance these in a relationship? Like is there a perfect Explain, is it 50/50? Is it 60/40? Is it you know, 20/80? And in what direction? Like, how do you determine what your relationship needs? Like? Maybe that’s the question that our audience is like, wow, you’re right. All my date nights are face-to-face. Like, maybe we need some side to side, side by side. Or maybe they’re all side-by-side. And we’re operating in this fun carefree zone. But now we really need to sit down and like, yeah, engage, like, how do we? How do people know what the balance is?

Jordan
Yeah. I don’t know if there’s a percentage to put on it. Like, I guess I would say 50/50. But I don’t know if that’s accurate or not. I would say that it’s good just to ask the question, like, do you when you’re sitting, or when you have the opportunity even to be face-to-face with one another? Like, what is that? Like? Is there a chance to enhance that or make that better? Or does that feel like does it feel like maybe there’s a better way to utilize that time together and go and enjoy an activity together or even where the opportunities I think like we’re talking about date nights, but even within the context of your marriage, like where are the opportunities to work on something together, that you feel like you’re you’re mutually experiencing that? Like I said, parenting is probably the biggest thing for those parents out there that you’ll be working together on. How can you then ask the reverse question? How can you make sure that there is like face-to-face time with your spouse to have that shared vision, that opportunity to reinforce one another within those roles and maintain that romantic connection amidst the work that’s going on? So I mean, I think the only way to strike balance and we talked about this in almost every episode is like just asking questions and reflecting so that you can find what’s missing and identify what’s not working and make the appropriate adjustments.

Rosanna
Yeah, I mean, and even in last week’s episode, when we were talking about like, why are we picking up those devices? Why are we looking at screens like what’s what’s off, right? That mindfulness of like, something’s off between like, We’re fine. And I love you and we’re friends. But like, I feel like something’s missing. So what is that is? Do we just need a fun carefree afternoon where someone watches the kids and we go on a bike ride through the forest preserve? Like, what? What is it that you need? You know, sometimes you just need that playful interaction. So I think you’re right. It’s that intentional, like self diagnosis of what haven’t we had in a while?

Jordan
And I also feel like when you when you get older and look back on any given relationship, like what, what tends to stick? And like when we’re telling stories or talking about fun times we had, we’re never like, Oh, this one time we went to this coffee shop and had a really deep conversation with each other. That doesn’t really make that great of a story. But the experiences that we share have ways of even ways that sometimes defy any sort of definition or words, but there’s there’s a kind of bond that’s that’s built in the midst of that and you have these memories and stories along the way. But that’s counterbalanced by making sure that you are like focusing and understanding one another. And I think when you feel like you could be doing either like a face-to-face or side-by-side kind of engagement with anybody, then that is an opportunity to maybe let those reinforce one another and strengthen one another as you go.

Rosanna
Well, and I think one thing that we can’t forget, either is that we can’t let what other relationships and people are doing, define what we think we need to do for ourselves, because we know what our relationship needs. So we can get ideas from people like, Oh, they did this cool.

Jordan
Let’s do that, too. That would fit us

Rosanna
Right. But not you know that people who wine and dine often, like maybe that that does something for them that their relationship needs. But maybe that’s not what your relationship needs. And so while the thought and the idea behind it is good, or the resources that they have are different than yours, like how do you recreate the same sentiment of face-to-face or the same sentiment of side by side, but that fits uniquely who you are and what your relationship stands for?

Jordan
I’m thinking of this in terms of other contexts too. Like I’m even thinking of colleagues at work, because you’re, by definition, coworkers. And so so much of what you’re supposed to be doing is, is side-by-side. But is their purpose and opportunity to, you know, pausing that at times and letting like the face-to-face interactions, reinforce the side-by-side work that you can do? And I think that’s one thing people sometimes complain about, is like, you know, you get sidetracked with conversate like water cooler conversations. There’s sort of office chatter that gets in the way of your efficiency at work. But I think there’s a reason why that exists. And we’re so prone to do that is because I think we feel like we need to reinforce the relationships by focusing on and talking to one another, about each other and about our experiences so that when it is time to buckle down and do work, we have a more like a stronger shared bond to be able to do that.

Rosanna
Well, right trust is built over those conversations, or even when you’re, you know, assigned a new project, and you know, someone needs to emerge as like a leader, or someone needs to, you know, do something specific, someone be like, you know, who would be a great fit for that, you know, Jordan would be a great fit for that, like, did you know that he does this and so he might be able to, you know, help us launch a podcast. Like, so it’s good when people know you past what your capabilities are, you know, work or corporate setting, when they get to know where your heart is, or where your passions are. And then that kind of builds a different kind of relationship that also improves your work relationship.

Jordan
Right. We briefly referenced this a couple of minutes ago, but I want to draw some focus to it. So I want to throw in another orientation here. So back-to-back – so we got face-to-face, side-by-side. Back-to-back is my third one. I picture the back-to-back analogy as two people near one another but focusing on their own thing.

Rosanna
I wish I picture Jurassic Park the raptors are surrounding you and you are right kind of each fighting off something while still being – sorry that’s like you said that like the raptors. Like literally my first thought.

Jordan
And I think that’s often where the phrase is used and like this defensive posture where you’re like you’re surrounded on all sides where you know back-to-back in battle. I don’t quite mean it like that so much as just say like we’re even though you might be near someone your orientation is towards other things. What role does that play in a relationship and what opportunities and pitfalls do you see in that kind of orientation?

Rosanna
Okay, so I think so if you’re saying back-to-back, and we’re both facing out. I’m thinking right now I see us standing together. I see you looking out and I see you chasing something that you want. And it’s something that you want that I’ve agreed to support you and so it’s not just like anything, it’s like, you know, this year I really want to, I really want to do this. And so I understand your vision, I understand stand where you’re looking where you’re coming from what you want. And I am kind of standing up against you supporting you. I’m not, you know, like a, like a picture frame or tripod, like a kickstand. Where it’s –

Jordan
Like one of those, one of those team builders where you gotta like lean against one another.

Rosanna
Yeah, but more so that, like, I’m giving you the strength of my back so that as you are trying to do something, I can support the other areas that maybe need to be taken care of, so that you can face outward.

Jordan
Gee, I didn’t picture that at all. I mean, I pictured – I agree with you half on that. I was thinking that at the same time you are also you know, it’s like mutual. There’s, there’s something I’m paying attention to and then there’s something you’re equally paying attention to.

Rosanna
Well, I would say that too, but like when I’m – like, I guess, yeah, you’re right. I agree that too, because I have my own dreams or goals or plans, and they’re not without your permission and without your help. And I mean, when I say permission, I don’t want you to think that he has control over what I want. But it’s more like this understanding of okay, I am also now pursuing x. And in order to do that, I will need your support behind me. So that I can also do that, but it’s not always simultaneous. It’s always like one leans on one and one leans on the other. So it’s like a back and forth.

Jordan
Yeah. Yeah, I think realistically there needs to be that that agreement between the two if it’s – otherwise, you can just go off completely in your own direction.

Rosanna
All right, because then I picture like a duel almost where you’re just like, you’re back to back and then you’re out. Right and you’re getting further apart. So this one’s almost like, I for those of you watching on YouTube, you’re watching my hands, but it’s kind of like this stick that can bend. So it can like lean. But you’re still together that you’re not completely walking away from one another.

Jordan
Yeah. And I think that that would be one of the pitfalls with that as one, like you, you can turn away from one another and what is going on and what you’re separately interested in becomes the sole focus. I think that’s one of the pitfalls. And you mentioned, like agreement and permission. And I think those things are important because you, you really can just go off and do whatever you want. And I can just go off and do whatever I want. But practically speaking, that’s not going to make for a great relationship. So there’s a role that that plays, there are things that you’re just going to do or are interested in, that I won’t be a part of. And same with me for my end.

Rosanna
And that’s a part of a healthy relationship. To have separate interests and separate aspirations. But that doesn’t come without the support of one another or like the blessing to go ahead and do it so that our values remain aligned and our core stays intact.

Jordan
So I think the back-to-back supporting one another’s important but I also think of like, at some point you want to, like turn around and this is this is what reinforces face to face too is when you’ve experienced something separately, and then at the time that you are able to come together and focus on one another, you could bring that experience to the other person. And you can share that with them, you can hear from them and then enjoy talking about and just digesting that experience by talking to the other person about it.

Rosanna
But I think that then also kind of brings you’ve come back to the relationship with something that I have not experienced or something that I don’t understand. And then when you share it with me, hopefully like there’s this excitement, right? Or there’s like an understanding, and it’s a way for us to then consider something that would you know, that would help drive me forward or help drive us forward or like there’s more so that we don’t run out of things to say no, and we don’t run out of things to share that it becomes it. It brings a wealth of like knowledge And experience back to the relationship for our benefit. Okay. I have one last question on my list. And I know we’re kind of getting close here. So how can we keep perfect pace with our partners or spouse? So if we are side-by-side, how do we get to a point where one of us isn’t running ahead and dragging the other? Or one of us isn’t pulling the other one back? Like how do we, how do we do it in a good healthy way?

Jordan
Right. So I, here’s my answer to this question is that the point of all of these different kinds of interactions is the relationship okay? And so if you’re doing something where that something that activity or that –

Rosanna
– That interest, goal –

Jordan
– whatever it is, supersedes the relationship, then I think it becomes unhealthy and needs to stop.

Rosanna
Okay. Back to the Godfather, quote.

Jordan
Back to the Godfather quote, that’s right!

Rosanna
I think you should do should be like right kind of comes back to the relationship. So if you are now engaging in something that has you well, in front of or well behind your spouse or your relationship, then you’re doing the wrong thing.

Jordan
Right. The point is the relationship. So I think that’s one thing to keep center because you can begin working on something together. Like I would say, like family for example. It’s you get married and to begin having children, you facilitate this beautiful thing called family, but it is work, it is an investment and sometimes the the day to day management of that. It takes its toll and we lose sight of the reason and the people behind what all that work is for. That’s just one example. But I think that happens and in any other domain as well where the action, the work, the activity suddenly takes on more importance than the relationships of the people that we even engaged with in the first place.

Rosanna
That we’re doing it for. Right. Okay. Okay. Big Questions.

Jordan
Yeah. I think this is a good chance for us especially as we’re wrapping up season one to, I mean we’ve talked about our relationship and we’ve talked about so many things in life. I think it’s a good point for us to kind of reflect on these different questions that we’ve had that ways we’ve challenged one another. The topics like face-to-face and side-by-side that help us, I think, be more conscientious and intentional with how we’re going about life and try to apply as much of it as possible for the kind of life that we’re pursuing. So what takeaways you have from today’s conversation?

Rosanna
Okay, number one, go ahead and stare at each other and enjoy it. Take the time to be alone together, to gaze to hold hands to be romantic, but also take the time to be vulnerable. Take the time – and I’m not gonna say to be confrontational but to ask the hard questions that when we are face-to-face, we don’t have to not challenge each other or shy back and not

Jordan
Maybe haggle over something, hash some things out.

Rosanna
Yeah, I think that’s important because we can brush those things under the rug for a long time causing more problems. So there’s obviously a healthy way to do that, so we advocate for communicating face-to-face, but also enjoying that time together. The second would be to intentionally make time in your life and in all of your relationships for those side-to-side, side-by-side moments, because you can breed love and trust and patience and understanding and like mindedness and grow together in fun and new ways. Because it’s not always going to be the romantic or the confrontational ways that you’re going to grow. And then the third thing is to unite your vision. Two people need to travel in the same direction and I think it has if you’re looking at the relentless pursuit, right, the title of our podcast. The whole purpose of this is that we need to be in alignment and in agreement where where we’re headed is. And so we will do that side-by-side, but we need to be in agreement on how to get there.

Jordan
So I like the little last word in our tagline, relentlessly pursuing a life worth living, together.

Rosanna
Together. So, have specific goals in place that will guide your vision and keep you guys in check. So, I know we did a challenge last week. Okay, but I thought maybe we could do one more challenge. Okay. So we can do this, obviously, and you guys at home can do this as well. But why don’t you take some time to assess how you’re spending time with your spouse? Is it face-to-face is it side-byside. So if you feel like you’re needing more of one, schedule some time in this next week for a face-to-face with your partner, if you haven’t had that opportunity, yet.

Jordan
Don’t make it awkward. Don’t say, Honey, we need some face-to-face.

Rosanna
You might scare the other. But you know, maybe you need a romantic date night out. Or maybe you need a coffee date where you start talking about, let’s talk about some of our dreams and goals. Like what what’s next for the blank family? What do we want? Yeah, what do we want to aspire to? Who do we want to become more like, how can we do life better? You know, so maybe it’s, you know, that kind of conversation. If you’re always doing these romantic date nights, and you know, or you’re always hashing things out, right? There are couples that are just intense and they’re always talking about, like these deep conversation. Yeah, go have some fun, huh? Right. Visit, visit a play, go to the zoo without the kids just together to look around. go on a hike, go on a bike ride. And we’re limited now with where we can go and what we can do. But be inventive. and have some fun.

Jordan
Make an experience for yourselves that you’ll remember and laugh about. And hopefully it’ll make a memory that you can cherish.

Rosanna
Yeah. And then tell us about it. Comment on our websites, send us something on social media, do a little video and tag us in it, but be a part of our community. Be a part of what we’re doing. We’re sharing what we’re doing with you. Share with us because we want to know what you guys are doing. Yeah. So what do you think the end of season one is officially upon us?

Jordan
That wraps up Episode 12. Thank you so much for listening throughout the season, and we hope that you’ve found some good insights and inspirations along the way. We’re very excited in the weeks ahead of preparing everything for the next upcoming season with more tips, recommendations, stories, inspirations, challenges, they’ll be headed your way. So thanks for listening to the relentless pursuit podcast and we’ll be speaking with you again.

Rosanna
Welcome to Episode 11. Look at faces, not devices. On this episode we will be using research to dive into discussion on technology and devices and the influence it has on our relationships, our health, and our day-to-day lives. We need to remember that our lives are what we pay attention to. So this episode is really all about challenging us to really look at how much are we paying attention to our devices and maybe not to what’s right in front of us as we live in an age with unregulated access to attention and the relevant information.

Jordan
Yeah, I think that screens slowly have infiltrated just our day to day business. So much, so that I mean for a number of years now a lot of people have requested from this, like, wait a minute, I want to pay attention to something other than a screen. And we realize how difficult that can be, because of all the the number of ways that we rely on them for work and for entertainment and for information. And so on.

Rosanna
I mean, I’m more than thankful for those things. I am able to grocery shop for my phone, sign up my kids for classes from my phone, conduct my business from my phone, I mean, it’s all there, making it very easy to access and to do those things at any time.

Jordan
That’s a double edged sword then it’s like, wait, I can do this at any time. That’s great. Oh, shoot, I am doing this now at any time and every time and there is plenty of perks to take advantage of. And I think down the road as well in the show, we should talk about some of those perks in a future episode, but I think there’s some things you know, one of our keywords is intentionality. And so one of these is definitely one of the areas where we have to be intentional with to make sure that we’re using them in the best ways, but avoiding the pitfalls as well.

Rosanna
Right. And when we talked about doing this episode with this title, with the intention of even looking at the way in which we use technology and the way in which perhaps we’re overusing, I felt really guilty, because I will confess that I am on my phone a lot. And sometimes it’s for good things. And other times it’s very mindless. And so now this past week, I have caught myself just paying greater attention to like, do I need to be on my phone right now? And if the answer is no, I’ve been leaving my phone like in a different room, just so I’m not tempted to just grab it and ideally scroll and see what the world is up to.

Jordan
Yeah, I think when the radio was invented, there was some pushback because now people 24/7 could have access to information from the airwaves and there was one person who criticized that – great now I now I can learn that so and so he named some like, distant personality now we can learn that so and so has the flu. And his point is they didn’t really need to know that this person what their health status was. So as we get into today’s episode, the format for today will be like this: Rosanna and I both decided to independently research some facts and figures related to screen use in the American household. And we’re going to share some of what we found with one another live right now. And we have some questions that we’ve paired with each of the research bits to challenge one another with as well. Speaking of challenges, at the end, the part we’re both nervous about is that we have each devised a challenge for us to embark on right after this episode. And so I’m going to share with Rosanna a challenge that will both do and she has another screen-related challenge that we’re both going to do as well. And I really nervous about hearing what you’re saying I’m nervous about just doing these challenges that I think will push us in the right direction, but maybe we’ll be the word challenge is maybe the appropriate word. So it’ll be hard to do.

Rosanna
Yeah. And hopefully this will challenge you to kind of maybe think your device and screen usage and come up with your own challenge or, you know, join us in our challenge of trying to kind of put some limitations on that so that you can be intentional with your time in better ways.

Jordan
All right. So I want to go first with my first facts and figure because I think it will pertain to all the rest. I did some original research for the show. And I went around and I counted how many screens we have in our house.

Rosanna
Okay, and did you break them up into category you just like –

Jordan
We could. Yeah, I just total number. Okay, off the top of your head, what’s your guess?

Rosanna
Oh, gosh. 2-4-6-8-12!

Jordan
Yeah, it’s 12. Yes. Did you know I just literally.

Rosanna
I was like, well, I just like okay, the two of these three of these I just saw it was a guess.

Jordan
Yeah. So I’ve never really counted them before. But there’s there’s only six of us. So we really have a two screen to person ratio in this household. And again, I don’t think that’s good. I don’t think that’s bad. But that’s something to be aware of. And how many screens do we use on a daily basis, so many screens that the kids using on a daily basis, I think that’s just one thing to be cognizant of.

Rosanna
Well, I’m just now I’m trying to figure out like, allocate that because I was like, the kids don’t have other than a Nintendo Switch. They don’t have a personal device.

Jordan
No they do.

Rosanna
The kids each have a personal device

Jordan
They do.

Rosanna
They don’t each have like an iPad or a tablet.

Jordan
No, but they have a Chromebook from school. Yeah, but they don’t really use those. Right. Those are screens in the household, and at various times, they are used. So it did make the count.

Rosanna
But that’s two of four children because then two still don’t have a personal device.

Jordan
Goes into the total. Okay. Yeah. So I don’t have a question attached to that. But I think that’s one thing to keep in mind as we talk about some of the other things.

Rosanna
Well, let’s talk about what we have, though. Don’t you think people are interested? Okay, so we have two TVs, two, we have one in our family room where like we watch TV as like a family or the kids watch TV. We have made the choice to not have TVs in our bedrooms.

Jordan
Yeah. No TVs in the bedrooms, right? For the most part.

Rosanna
For the most part, okay, — So two TVs, and then we have one in the basement that we use for, for working for working out. So it’s people don’t go down there to watch TV. It’s more for working out. So we have two of those two cell phones. Two iPads.

Jordan
We have three.

Rosanna
How do we have three?

Jordan
I have one for work. We have your device and then we also have this one that we’re recording on right now.

Rosanna
Okay, all right. So three iPads, so two TVs, two cell phones, three iPads,

two Chromebooks and then you and I both have a laptop.

Jordan
Okay, does this count you also have a smartwatch I think that’s a screen. I think that counts. I think that moves the count up to 30.

Rosanna
Well, what about our Google Home hub then is that a screen?

Jordan
Oh, God, I forgot about that. That’s 14. You see how insidious these things are. So there’s, there’s so many of them. And we do have certain, I think, rules and barriers and precautions, like no TVs in the bedrooms, which I think is a great rule. But we also pretty easily violate that as well with our especially now that we just with with elearning. And the way we kind of set up our household during COVID. We’ve been spending I think a little bit more time with various screens, whether for work or for play in the bedroom.

Rosanna
Yeah, in rooms that we don’t usually use them or utilize them but need to because of needing privacy and quiet times. Alright.

Jordan
All right. So that’s my original research, I can type into some of the other things that we found.

Rosanna
Okay, so do you want me to go ahead and just share my first one? Yeah, there you go. All right. So this comes from National Geographic and the title was “Smartphones. revolution, revolutionize our lives, but at what cost?” And so I’m just going to read directly and then just there’s kind of two things to pull out at the end. So it says our use of smartphones has effectively changed the geography of our minds, creating a distractive off ramp for every thought we may have on our own. What I’ve seen in the last six to eight years is a massive paradigm, paradigm shift, much of the attentional resource that we devoted to our personal ecosystem has been shifted to what’s virtual. And that was, according to Larry Rosen, co author of the distracted mind, ancient brains in a high tech world. So basically, he sums it up by saying that means you are not attending to what’s in front of you. We see this in parenting, you’re not focusing on your kids. You’re not even focusing on what you’re watching on TV, because you’re second screening. It’s affecting every aspect of our lives.

Jordan
So we’re like on our phone while we’re watching TV.

Rosanna
We’re on our phone while we’re watching TV, right or we’re working on our personal laptop or our business laptop, while we’re watching TV. You know, so it’s in, right?

Jordan
This is there’s too many screens, we can’t even pay attention to one screen at a time.

Rosanna
To one screen at a time. So I wanted to kind of pull that out with parenting. It says you’re not focusing on your kids, because you constantly have a screen in front of you. And so I was like, what are the implications for our kids? If when they are talking to us, or when they do approach us, we’re we’re not even looking at or acknowledging them because we’re down looking at our screen. And so whether we’re conducting business on it, or we’re socializing with a friend, or we’re buying something on Amazon or placing a grocery order, what do you think that impact will have on our children over time? What does that teach them? What does that show them? What do they internalize from that if that’s what they see every time they come to us?

Jordan
So I actually have some similar research on this too, and I thought there might be some overlap. So I’m going to share this and then I think it’ll give us a little more to go off of what that. Alright, so you share the word second screening, I’m going to show with you the term techno-ference, okay? It’s like interference, but it’s technology interfering with like you’re saying like these, these human face-to-face interactions. So one thing I want to summarize is that there has been this study that’s been been out for some time, it actually was initiated in the 70s. But it’s been replicated with technology now. And it’s called the still face study. So you take an infant, and it’s interacting with this mother and the mother just goes still-faced, no expression, no interaction, it’s just a human face, but no human emotion in it. It creeps the baby out. As you can imagine, it creeps anybody out. This is actually replicated without us realizing it with our technology, because what kind of face do we have when we’re interacting with most of our technology? A still face. So when the child is looking at us having this expressionless kind of face as we’re scrolling through a phone or looking at a work laptop, they are equally creeped out and disconnected from their parents during those instances. All right. So that’s one thing that went to summarize. I’ll read this bit. And this was actually summarized in post. I found it on LinkedIn. It’s written by Arianna Huffington. And it’s part of a whole bunch of facts and figures that she shares, says in a large international survey of 6000 parents and children from countries and North America, South America, Asia, Europe, over half the children said their parents checked their devices too frequently. And 32% of children reported feeling unimportant as a result. That’s a huge percentage of kids and I think the I think our kids notice it and I think all children will notice this right, they want attention from their parents. And without even intending this to happen, we have so many screens that and they’re so addictive, like they just draw our eye and capture our attention, that without even realizing it, our kids are going to see us on these devices. So that really got me thinking like when one of our children walks into the room or when you walk into the room, what are you going to see me doing? Are you going to see me like looking at a screen or looking at a phone? Or if I’m already in the room with you is instead of paying attention to you or to one of the kids, am I going to take that out and let that absorb my attention? That’s been one of the questions on my mind as we’ve been researching this a little bit.

Rosanna
Yeah. And I think one of the things that stands out to amongst some of the research is that Gosh, I’m just completely drawing a blank… Let me just shift to the kids coming into a room and seeing us on devices. I think one of the things that really just has stood out is our daughter like walking into a room and like seeing the phone and saying, I wish I could have a phone like you. Right? She’s not saying I wish I could be a loving, caring mother like you are. I wish you know, it’s like, Oh, I wish I could have a phone like you because it becomes like this point of envy. Right, because she sees that it’s like important to me, and I have it with me. And now she wants to emulate that. And so it’s, that’s kind of like a scary, just a scary fact that like, because it’s with me all the time, she knows that and that’s now something that she wants to emulate and something that she wants.

Jordan
Yeah, I think that’s true with all of our kids. Like mom has a phone, Dad has a phone. These are obviously fun and important. I want that too. And I think that’s true, like whatever parents are doing that seems important, or it seems frequent, like kids are just gonna imitate that. And I see that with our particularly with our phone use, but even just screens, you know. It feels like if I’m working on a screen because I have something very, you know, adult and important that I need to attend to a moment. The kids don’t distinguish that in front them like Why can’t I go on a screen and they are emulating that behavior that we’re modeling for them?

Rosanna
Well, and I think sometimes I’ve read articles on Scarymommy.com they have all kinds of articles about Like parenting and like now we’re in the, like, overparenting generation where, like, when we were kids and even kids before us, like, you know, the kids would on a summer day like, you know, they’d have breakfast and they leave and they’d say, be home by be home by dark or be home by dinner. And the kids like had the autonomy just to like, be around town and on their bikes and with their friends. And now we’re a generation of parents, we’re like, we’re with our kids all the time. And we’re like, you know, helicopter parents and this and that. And parents are never given any kind of like release from their children because they’re too busy over parenting. And so there’s articles that will basically say, like, let the mom mindlessly scroll on her phone when she’s at the park because it’s the first time she’s had like time to kind of like sink back and withdraw and so if she withdraws on her phone, don’t judge her because she’s been with her kids all day. And, you know, she can’t be on top of her kids. And so just like let her shrink back. And so like I’ve kind of seen, like, putting technology and like using it as a way to escape or withdraw from like, overparenting right to recoil, because most of your day is spent like with your kids.

Jordan
Yeah, I feel like that’s true, although, maybe it’s important then to like distinguish between the two because some of the things that I was reading talked about how parents are often they’re, they’re more physically present with their kids, but it can be critiqued for only only really been half there. Having this divided attention where they’re sort of paying attention to interacting with their kids, but they’re not getting the same icontact not getting the same kind of emotional input because of the screens. So maybe that’s an important thing for us to think about is when we’re when we’re with our kids, if we want to try to make the most of that time is making sure that they do genuinely have our attention. And then when it’s time to relax or recoil or do some work or whatever we want to do with that we can maybe even do that more freely as well.

Rosanna
And I like that and I think that’s great for everyone to hear is that you don’t need to spend 12 hours a day with your child. Plenty of parents are dual income working families. So there’s not a mom or a dad that’s home all day every day with those kids. So even if you’re only with them for those four hours, then those four hours you’re all in. And then those other eight hours are like your work, your pleasure, your, you know, free time, your leisure, so that just be present when you’re there. And don’t let those distractions creep in.

Jordan
Okay. All right. So I had a few things related to kids into parenting. But I want to shift to something a little bit different on this, too. I read this. This comes from vox.com. And they this was an interesting article, because it’s summarize all kinds of research. And we’ll include links to all of these in our show notes. So one of the things that they ended up citing here was that they said, rather than using devices continually, we tend to check them throughout the day. On average, people open their phones – How many times a day what’s your guess?

Rosanna
100?

Jordan
Oh, no. 58 Okay, what’s the average, so I’m sure some people are far higher, some are far lower a lot of those times. So even during the work day, so when you’re at work like so I thought this was interesting too, because I find myself even like if my phone is in my pocket when I just have like a moment where I’m even quasi-liberated from paying strict attention to anything immediately around me my hand just gonna go to my pocket. I flick it open, and I don’t even know what I want from it. And I don’t know if any –

Rosanna
Comfort security, right, acknowledgement….

Jordan
It’s like I don’t actually need anything on this device right now. But yet, here it is. I flick it open. And it’s like my thumb is one step ahead of me, like it’s going to press on, you know, it’s gonna open my mail for the fiftieth time or it’s going to go to like social media or, you know, some other app that I have. And without really needing to and I think this you know, this bit that I found points to that. We’re constantly just opening these phones. There can’t possibly be 58 things that we have to do on our phone that require pressing attention throughout the day. It’s much more this this passive habit where it just comes out, we flick it open, and then sometimes just quickly flick it closed and move on. And I think that is going to drive you nuts. If you actually stopped to think about how many times you’re just looking at the screen, without really having intention to do anything. It’s like opening the pantry. And it’s like you’re not hungry. So you’re just passing by the pantry. I’m gonna open it up and see what’s in there, I’m not going to eat anything.

Rosanna
I’m kind of thinking, what did we used to do? Right? If we used to know if we flick on our phones 58 times during the day during idle moments. What did we use to fill those idle moments with? What like, do we use to walk over to the pantry? Right like what we do? Yeah. But I think that’s a good thing to think about. Like there’s all these idle minutes. And you know, a lot of people will say like, there’s not enough time in the day to accomplish all of your goals or your dreams or work towards something or have a side hustle and yet we’ve got all this time to know what Kim Kardashian is doing on Instagram. And you know, what’s the latest with Alex Tribec’s cancer, like all of these things that we don’t necessarily need to know we’re seeking out, but yet we’re wasting some of that valuable time. Dr. Suzanna Flores who is a clinical psychologist and an author of “Facehooked, how Facebook affects our emotions, relationships and lives” agrees that smartphones are useful in numerous ways, but can also cause friction in our lives. And she says, of course, there’s an addiction aspect. They’re always within arm’s reach. And there’s plenty of articles that I came across and it’s like cell phones are designed to be addicting. They’re designed to get you to take them out of your pocket and click on something and find something and like they’re designed that’s what we can’t help ourselves. We literally can’t help ourselves. So it’s that intentional knowing like I have this device in my pocket. You know, my this device that I spent $1,300 dollars on so my pocket, I don’t want to look at it, and we have this –

Jordan
This psychological attachment to it. Yeah. Have you ever been somewhere and you’ve suddenly realized you don’t know your phone?

Rosanna
Yeah, I went to the eye doctor yesterday. So we Juliette and I had appointments, and I got in the car and we were waiting. And I was just like standing there and we were going to have to wait because the doctor was running late, whatever, like reach into my purse, I go to grab my phone… I’m like, it’s not here…

Jordan
You patted all your pockets. Shoot, where did I leave it? What am I going to do now? And I feel like sometimes you’d be like, Oh, well, it’s it’s fine. I guess I’ll just, you know, stand here and think…

Rosanna
think engage with someone. Yeah. Read something that’s not on a screen.

Jordan
But there there are – I didn’t end up but bringing in any research about this, but I have read in the past -that there are real withdrawal symptoms that people experience when separated from their screens.

Rosanna
But I think so I think we do need to be more cognizant of separating ourselves from our screens, but and replacing those idle behaviors that don’t produce anything and not saying that you have to like produce something. If you’re but like, like, why aren’t we like mindfully meditating? Or like, you know, taking a step back or just like thinking or breathing or like, right? Nothing that’s like going to like, calm us down. And it’s you know, we log on to Facebook and we you know get infuriated by a post someone leaves or like…

Jordan
Another vocab word I learned while researching: Doomscrolling. Just like what you said like there’s can be a lot of negativity on certain sources that that we look up and they can give rise to these negative emotions. And I don’t know if anyone’s standing around thinking, you know what, I haven’t been angry in the last hour. But we do tend to gravitate sometimes towards things that creates these negative emotions and sometimes even engaging with it ourselves. So that’s Doomscrolling is when you’re scrolling through things, usually on your smartphone, that are sort of feeding these negative emotions.

Rosanna
Alright, so kind of a piggyback with Doomscrolling. Let’s talk a little bit more about conflict. So Dr. Flores talks a little bit more about this. She says in many ways digital communication appears to be altering our comfort levels with direct and honest communication and conflict resolution. Doing so will inevitably negatively affect our relationships, since important discussion should be done in person, or at the very least over the phone so that misunderstandings could be minimized.

Jordan
Oh, texting compounds the problem.

Rosanna
And so I know you’re very like anti-text, you’re not on your phone a lot. And you often tell me, you should not be discussing this over text because now you’re misconstruing what she’s misconstruing what you’re saying. Now, you both are like, in separate spots, having animosity and these feelings, like why don’t you just talk? And it basically, you know, like, it’s just this inability to, like, want to, like have to, like resolve the conflict through someone like we’re hiding behind our screens. So not only are we using them, you know, to fill time and to distract us, but we’re hiding behind them a lot of the time, right. And I mean, that goes to, you know, in relation to like, you know, posting only your best self and all of that, but like we’re hiding behind our phone. There’s all of those, you know, naysayers and internet trolls that like, Oh, they can whip out their phone or their computer and leave a nasty review. Or you rag on somebody.

Jordan
The YouTube comment section is not where you go to get smarter, in most cases. Facebook can often just kind of breed these negative conversations where they’re so unproductive. I want people to share their thoughts and experiences and I read those and learn from them. But it just gets it’s often volatile so quickly.

Rosanna
It’s often polarizing comments. And we’ve lost all reason to just scroll past like, Oh, I don’t agree with that. I’m going to scroll past it. Oh, now I’m fired up and I’m gonna tear you to shreds. So it’s just interesting that like, yeah, we can communicate with each other on opposite ends of the world and make connections with people we would have never met which are great things, but then at the same time, we’re either you know, hiding behind things and trying to solve conflicts, not in-person not face-to-face. And it’s giving us this inability to like, do it because now we’re not forced to have to call somebody and say, Hey, you know, this is where I’m coming from. Like, we don’t do that anymore. We just kind of hide behind and become negative. And so I thought that was interesting.

Jordan
One little thing I’ve noticed too, is that like, sometimes when you wanted to call someone back in the day, you would just call them, right, you’d have their phone number, and you’d call him and then answer the phone. Now I find myself like setting up phone conversations. So like, Is it okay if I call you or they’ll call me now call me later. And like we always have to schedule in a phone conversation to so there’s this whole like text preamble, just to get to the voice conversation.

Rosanna
And then like, so people are mentally preparing to have to have a conversation with you because I’d rather just text you like, oh, now they have to be kind and cordial, or they have to, like anticipate this conversation that you want to have. And it’s like, we’re putting like, more distance, you know, between people. No, it’s kind of like this podcast, we just turn on the mic. We turn on the screens. If we fumble if we forget something like I don’t have we don’t have a script here. Occasionally we’ll read something. We’re just we’re just talking. And it’s, is the art of talking gone? Is the art of having a conversation, sharing your feelings. Even just acknowledging someone else’s perspective, like, is this part of it? Like, is this shift in technology? Is this where the disconnect is happening? And is this why it’s more important than ever to invite people into your home to share where you’re coming from your experiences to, like engage in that because we’re leaving it to texting and, you know, internet trolls to, you know, where we get our feedback and our information and that’s, that’s not what life is about.

Jordan
I agree. I don’t think it’s the end of conversation. And I can think of, you know, the I say, everybody that I know, is really engaging to speak with. I think the problem is we maybe just don’t do it as often as we used to, like, before we have on the screens in technology. And even like we had, like we had television and video games growing up, but I think the hidden factor is the portability of all of that now. Like wherever we go, and anytime we want them, we can use them, in addition to our smartphones and tablets and laptops and those kinds of things.

Rosanna
Well do you remember when we told the kids that like, we were not bringing the Nintendo Switch on our two week road trip? They were like, wait? Or when we showed up to our friend’s house in Colorado, and their children wanted screen time, and they said, well, will your kids be having screen time? And we said, well, we didn’t bring screens for them. And they were like, you didn’t bring screens for them? No, we didn’t bring personal screens for everybody. The Chromebooks are at home. You know, we brought one iPad that attached to the back of the headrest in the car for movies, but we still made them wait like eight hours before we turned anything.,

Jordan
Look out the window, the original drive-by movie?

Rosanna
So it’s just interesting that you’re right because of portability. We can take them anywhere.

Jordan
Yeah. Right, who went last without research?

Rosanna
I don’t know. I just ended with that digital communication and like the in person and not being able to resolve conflict. So maybe you, you, it’s your turn to go.

Jordan
Okay, I have one more and then we can get into our challenges. All right, here’s this one. Sleep is the category.

Rosanna
My last one has to do with sleep too.

Jordan
Okay. All right. Let’s, let’s talk about it. Are we like reading each other’s minds here? We have pretty much research related to the same couple domains.

Rosanna
We’ve been together 22 years married 14, I – you know, there’s some overlap.

Jordan
There’s a little overlap. All right. All right. So this, this is going to amble into a few different areas. The first and I got this from a couple of different sources, one of which is sleep.org. I believe.

Rosanna
That’s where mine comes from. Okay, the content created by the National Sleep Foundation, but it was on sleep.org

Jordan
So the first thing that I found was that is that when your phone is when it When your phone is within arm’s reach, you’ll be tempted to check news outlets think about the current crisis, which will cause more stress because you have, again, like 24/7 access to things that can to information that can be more stressful than accessing it on a lighter schedule. 90% of people in the US admit to using a tech device during the hour before they go to bed. And this can negatively affect your sleep in a number of ways. They they list a few but it’s physiologically and psychologically stimulating so that it can be harder to fall asleep. And they’re not discriminating here between different kinds of screens. It could be you know, TV, video games, phone, work, whatever. But all of that is a type of stimulation that does not really allow your body to or your mind to fully get into sleep. So we’re losing out on uninterrupted sleep, or losing out on deep sleep, we’re losing out on just hours of sleep and how many times you crawl into bed thinking, I’m just going to look at this and then a whole hour goes by right? Where you could have been sleeping. So there’s a bunch of research out there about how using TVs, tablets, smartphones, laptops, any other device before bed delays your body’s internal clock, suppresses the release of the sleep inducing hormone, melatonin and makes sleep more difficult. So are we, you and I like are we losing out on some of the health benefits of good sleep because of the intrusion of screens?

Rosanna
I would say yes, and we change our habits. I think we do. I know you’re really good about that. Really. One of the last things you do before you go to bed is you always read and for you, sometimes it’s a sentence and you’re asleep. So I think that’s good because your mind it is it’s like under winding it’s coming down very naturally. And sometimes you read for a while. But something you’ve done more of most recently, which kind of boggles my mind is like that you’re listening to like podcasts and YouTube things. And you’re like drifting off to sleep with these people’s like voices and whatnot in your head and with earphones in and the phone right there. Like that can’t be good that that can’t be healthy. So but I’m just as guilty, because the very last thing that I’m always looking at is my phone, right? I’m scrolling Instagram one last time or I’m on Facebook one last time or I’m texting a girlfriend about something right. So I am not without faults and nor should I throw stones at anybody but you know, I think part of the whole phone thing is its proximity. And so there are other studies out there that say even if you’re not looking at your phone in that hour before bed, the fact of having devices in your bedroom also disturbs like your sleep and your sleep cycles. And like there’s, I can’t quote for you any specific piece of research about it. But it’s like other people are pushing for not even having those devices in your room. They’re saying get an old fashioned alarm clock, like leave the phones out of the room. Don’t let them be a part of your sleep cycle.

Jordan
I’ve heard about that with education, like students who have a phone, on their desk, or even in their bag are remotely aware of its presence. And so if it is across the room, or if it is outside of the classroom that helps this bigger feeling of release and greater attention. I’ve heard that even with parenting, where they if your children have phones that you charge it in your room, so your children, your child doesn’t have it in their room. But I did, really, for the first time, as far as like just adults personal habits go like read over the last week we were preparing for this, that the same thing that even just having it around you when you’re trying to sleep or at any other time, it has the same impacts and the more you can physically distance yourself, the more detachment you’ll be able to enjoy.

Rosanna
Yeah. So I think one of the questions to really look at at this point is we reach for our phones because we’re either bored, uncomfortable, stressed, lonely, or restless or overwhelmed. So like, the question to ask yourself is like –

Jordan
Can I add one more to them? I would say that we are increasingly uncomfortable with our own the sound of our own voice.

Rosanna
So like, so you’re talking about the sound of our own voice, like the thoughts in your head.

Jordan
Our own internal monologue. Ever since entertainment, and I think of the iPod, where it’s like portable music, you can you can entertain yourself with this anywhere. I think it’s very easy to tune into these kinds of things that we have access to anywhere. And it just tunes out any opportunity for us to be thinking. And when we are alone with our thoughts. Now I’ve read like one philosopher, that I like says a man who finds himself it alone is in good company. Meaning that like you can be alone with your own thoughts, that can be a really good thing. But how often are we ever alone with our thoughts?

Rosanna
Right? How often do we create space where we go out and say, like, I’m going to, I’m going to take a run right now. And I’m not going to fill my ears with a podcast or music or I’m going to go for a walk, or I’m gonna go find a tree driving the car, and then sit and just sit around the house. Just think like, let my thoughts take me to where I need to go or let me tune into like maybe what my, my heart is telling me or where I’m feeling led. And we don’t create, we don’t create those scenarios. Therefore, oftentimes, we feel lost. Yeah. And when we feel lost, we turn to these devices to fill us with something, even if it’s meaningless.

Jordan
So hopefully, if you are listening to this, those times you’re being filled with great meaning and value. But at the same time, I think like what we’re saying is that there’s something to be intentional about, find the things that are very valuable to tune into, but also find the time to let your thoughts be your thoughts and engage with them, even if they are negative or uncomfortable, so that you can I think fully just experience and kind of roll through whatever kind of emotional or thoughtful process your mind needs to.

Rosanna
Alright. Yeah, I mean, what I was gonna finish that with is like, ask yourself, what do you really need at this moment? You know, so if you’re feeling bored, uncomfortable, stressed, lonely, restless, confused, what is it that you really need? Do you need more Facebook? Probably not. Maybe you need a walk. Maybe you need a glass of water. Maybe you need some time to yourself, like what is it that you need?

Jordan
Or just focus and attention on what you are doing at that moment.

Rosanna
Really, it was that same kind of chunk of information that I had from sleep.org. But do you want to go into challenges? Do you think it’s an appropriate time or is there something you want to add?

Jordan
No, let’s let’s dive into it. We have our challenges. This is the moment I’ve been somewhat looking forward to and somewhat dreading. Do you want to go first?

Rosanna
I don’t know that mine is it’s not earth shattering but for me it’s just it has more to do with intentionality and so it’s this: I want to engage in a life that isn’t focused on FOMO which is fear of missing out right – like I’m checking these feeds social media what people are posting what people are commenting on my post what they’re saying, right because I have a fear of missing out so I want to know it all.

Jordan
I want to see it right away and yeah –

Rosanna
Okay. I no longer want to have JOMO, joy of missing out. I want to enjoy my life.

Jordan
I haven’t heard that before. So all right, so you want JOMO

Rosanna
Yeah, life without recording, documenting every moment not having my phone super handy are with me all the time so that in an idle moment, I can check it. But we’ve talked about this “These Are the Days” being present in my day, when I’m with my kids. I’m with my kids. When I’m working. I’m working You know, I’m not, you know, looking at leisure stuff when I should be working, focusing on what’s in front of me at that moment, taking the time to plan for the future, so and not missing out on the joy that’s right in front of me because I am more comfortable taking something out and looking at it.

Jordan
All right. So what’s the challenge?

Rosanna
So the challenge is for me to physically, we’ve been physically distancing right from people and places and things. It’s time for me to physically distance myself from my phone. I know you’re laughing!

Jordan
I think that’s good. Just in putting like, I’m gonna social distance from my phone right now. Yeah, we just need to sit down, have a conversation with their phone and say, Hey, just so you know, I my challenge actually goes along with that too. So maybe we’ll have more like one challenge and I tried to frame mine a little bit more specific. So this is maybe one way to pursue JOMO. Alright, so I think that the challenge for both of us I’d like to put on the table is no being on screens when someone else is in the room. Okay? So what I mean by that is like if I’m, if I have work I need to do, I’m going to excuse myself to where we have our desk setup, I’m going to do work that during a specific amount of time in a specific place. And if someone walks in during that, like, I can’t help that they’re walking in and waiting so often, if I’m in the kitchen, for example, and we’re hanging out making breakfast, no phone, no work, no screen. So really, if we’re going to access screen time, I think there are, like two circumstances. One is if it’s agreed that that’s what we’re doing together. So like, if we’re going to watch something together, I would say that that’s okay. And I would say the other thing is that it would otherwise it’s got to be separate and intentional. So I’ve got to have like a set aside time where like, I gotta go do this on the screen. I’m going to do it for this amount of time, but then I’m going to go back to other people without the screen with me.

Okay, all right, so we got that out of the bag. We’re gonna what’s the what are the what we’re gonna do this for one week? Let’s do it for one week. Here’s my proposal. We’ll do this for one week, we will compose kind of a blog post each to summarize our experiences.

Rosanna
Okay, I think that’s fair.

Jordan
And then we’ll we’ll put that out there for everyone to read and to comment on if you’re listening to this, feel free to take up the same challenge as well. Or maybe you want to challenge yourself or a significant other with something that is more pertinent to you guys. So we laid out a few bits of research, I think we gained a lot even just from that process of researching, and we encourage you to maybe look up some facts and figures related to screentime related to phone use for yourself and for your family, and see what kind of takeaways you might be able to have. And we’d love for you to comment on this and share with us some of your experiences related to screens. If you haven’t yet. Please feel free to visit TheRelentlessPursuitPodcast.com where you can see more of our posts, you can read show notes and get links from everything that we’ve mentioned today and leave your own comments and feedback for us. And also, if you haven’t yet, please leave us a five star rating and a raving review. That makes us feel pretty darn good and helps other folks find us as well. So thanks for tuning in to Episode 11. And next week is so 12. It’s our last episode of season one. We’re looking forward to you guys as well. So thanks for listening. We hope you have a great rest of your day.