Rosanna 0:13
Welcome to season two, episode seven of the relentless pursuit podcast. Today’s episode is entitled, what are we grateful for. So if you’re listening to this in real time, it’s the day before Thanksgiving, and maybe you’re prepping your turkey or your stuffing or doing some baking of apple pies with your kids or listing what you’re grateful for. But maybe you’re catching this after Thanksgiving. And that’s okay. We know it’s easy to get behind on listening. But I think this topic of what are we grateful for extends all year long. And it’s not just Thanksgiving. But I think it was the perfect time to just bring up this topic of having this mindfulness about being grateful for the things that we do have.

Jordan 0:55
And that’s what I like about Thanksgiving, it is a day that’s set aside in this country to especially be thankful for what we have. But we can we can do that any time of the year. And we I think that’s what we’ll explore today, too, is how can we have that attitude, really, at any point, and especially take advantage of thanksgiving to focus on it?

Rosanna 1:16
So why don’t you kind of start us off today with just talking a little bit about Thanksgiving, the holiday? And let that kind of be the foundation for kind of what we build on today?

Jordan 1:26
Yeah, well, I think all of us remember from our childhood, like maybe cutting out pilgrims in school and talking about some of the basics of just American history. And knowing that this was a festival, a celebration of sorts, where some pilgrims were back in the 16 hundred’s and founded their colony. And set day actually, they set three days aside to kind of be celebrate separative of what they had. And there’s a lot of really fascinating details around that original Thanksgiving. But the term Thanksgiving with a lowercase t is just actually something that people would do all the time where they have like smaller celebrations or smaller ways to observe the things that they’re grateful for. And so the capital T Thanksgiving kind of has an interesting history, like throughout America wasn’t really a national holiday until the 1860s. And even then has like morphed over time into the modern day to the modern way that we celebrate it now. So. But one of the things that has stood out to me over the years that I’ve I’ve spoken with you about is head, it is so close to Christmas, that in a lot of ways it gets overshadowed by the consumeristic monolith that Christmas has unfortunately become. And we see this irony that setup where on the one hand, we have this day that is set aside for us to give thanks for what we have. But the day following that is the day that we go spend the most money compared to any other day in the year buying more things. And oftentimes those other things are gifts, but that encroaches on our ability to, I think truly express what we could Thanksgiving. And we even have like these sales that start earlier and earlier. So people are waking up early on Black Friday, or even leaving Thanksgiving dinner, to go catch this next sale and save a few bucks. And so I think that is like one of those national ironies that we can have two competing interests, on the one hand, one hand being grateful for what we have, and on the other hand, trying to pursue more.

Rosanna 3:47
Well, what’s interesting is that people who know me personally know that Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. Mine to mine has always been at. And I think it stems it stems from a variety of things. Things getting was the holiday that my mom hosted when we were kids. And so my aunts and uncles and cousins would come over and I remember that being some of the fondest memories and my dad is one of four siblings and everybody has almost everybody has three kids. And I mean it was a houseful but it was I just remember that being like a really special time and both sets of grandparents being there, and really celebrating that. And then as I’ve gotten older, I’ve always said that I’ve loved Thanksgiving. And it’s not because I love Turkey. It’s not because I love stuffing or ham or cream. I actually hate the Thanksgiving menu. But to me there’s something like so beautiful about Thanksgiving that we’re gathering together. And it’s about nothing else than gathering. And I’ve even written a blog post about like, kind of like what’s your gather? And like what what our gather as a family is and why that’s important. And so that’s always been and I’ve kind of argued that argued with friends of mine but I mean I think of two of my best friends and both I’m like, Oh my gosh, I love Christmas. I love everything about Christmas.

Jordan 4:56
But in the finish time of year two isn’t a season

Rosanna 4:58
correct and but For me, Christmas is stressful. And there’s like a lot of expectations that you know, come with gifts and giving and exchanges and even expectations for families and grandparents and like, there’s just so many things to manage that the magic for Christmas is often lost for me, especially as a mom trying to like, facilitate that for my family. But to me, there’s still something so warm and comforting about Thanksgiving. And that’s a mentality that I would like to like, let last all year long. And so that’s why I’m excited about talking about it today.

Jordan 5:33
Yeah, yeah, I feel like Thanksgiving is a holiday is the least infiltrated by outside interests. Right? It is. It is a simple holidays, simple concept, thankfulness. And we gather around that concept. So it’s a meal and we have family dinner, every man’s

Unknown Speaker 5:50
gluttony is a meal

Jordan 5:52
with a purpose, right?

Rosanna 5:54
Yeah. And well, yeah, so setting an intention for that meal. And for Thanksgiving, and even trying to cultivate that attitude and mindset with your family, or the people gathering around your table, like sharing what you’re thankful for, what you’re grateful for, or the blessings that have overflowed in the year. But sometimes it’s hard for people to want to talk about those things, or even, you know, speak them in front of others that they’re, like embarrassed or that it’s vulnerable. But I think that that could be really important. So let’s just talk about this perspective. Before we kind of dive into our q&a unless you have something else you want to add No. Okay. I think sometimes what overshadows like Thanksgiving, and you kind of mentioned this with like that Black Friday, the day after, and the the Christmas season kind of right on its tail is we often let our own comparison to others who have more derail us from finding contentment, and thanks for what we do have. And so we’re always looking at like, even with Christmas like, right, like buying those gifts that the kids want, based on what their friends have, or what they’re seeing on commercials or whatever we kind of like, let that let us not be grateful for what we have. But how often do we really think about those who have less than us. And so I just kind of looked up a quick stat. And it says here, according to World Vision, org, recent estimates for global poverty are at that 8.6% of the world, or 730 6 million people live in extreme poverty, and $1 and 90 cents, or less a day, according to the World Bank. And in the United States, 12.3% of the population, or 37, or 39 point 7 million people live in poverty with an income of less than 33.26 per day. According to the 2017 sodas $33 $33 and 26 cents, I don’t know why I couldn’t say that out loud. I was like so focused on the number that I printed, mispronounced it. But when we think of those numbers, so whether it’s worldwide or even within the United States, how grateful should we be for all of the things that we have.

Jordan 7:58
So we often have it flip flops, where we focus on those who have more, and then we feel worse about ourselves for what we don’t have. Whereas if we realize how much we do have, then that puts us in a position to be more grateful. Yeah,

Rosanna 8:14
and I think we live in a time, and we live in a world where we have a lot, but because we’ve always had what we have, and we don’t have maybe a more global perspective of what other people have or don’t have in the world, we miss the fact that we should be thankful and grateful for all the things that we do have.

Jordan 8:34
But I think a lot of our happiness and gratitude is connected to, like, just a comparison. And I hate to say that, but that’s just I think part of human psychology is to see what does your neighbor have that you don’t and then you want that, except our neighborhood has gotten very, very big over the last 20 years because we used to really compare ourselves to people on our streets or people in our town. And then when you have like radio and television that kind of expands like what’s expands your understanding of what’s available in the world. And now we have the internet and we have social media, and you can really get the sense of kind of the best of the best in the world. You see the richest and you see like the most fit and attractive and, and all the gizmos and gadgets and items that people have and you realize more and more and more what you lack. And so it is I think well maybe

Rosanna 9:29
not even what you lack what a perceived lacking in perceived because a picture of right a very posed picture of something may lead you to believe that someone is happy or fulfilled or is has it all together when what is behind the camera is not being reflected.

Jordan 9:48
Right? So it’s going to get getting at the nature of true happiness and true gratitude for what we have and not taking for granted what we have. If it is just normal. If it is just you know what we have on any day. Pay? Well,

Rosanna 10:00
and I think that brings up the term that we all know that we sometimes hashtag as first world problems. Yeah. First world problems defined founder looked up the definition for it. But do you look

Jordan 10:13
at Urban Dictionary? I did

Rosanna 10:15
not use Urban Dictionary, the perceived absence of what we’d call a pressing concerns. Okay, so the perceived procedure I can’t I talk today the perceived absence of what we’d call a present pressing concern. Because like, really, what do we have to complain about? Is the internet spotty, today? No, we let that derail our whole day. And you know, how unfortunate and I can’t do my research and I my my zoom calls, not like, we let that like derail our life, when this is not a pressing, people don’t eat. People don’t have clean water, and we’re letting that like derail us, or you know, I go to Costco, and there’s no Dave’s Killer bread.

Jordan 10:51
Yeah. What are we gonna eat? No,

Rosanna 10:53
I gotta eat like holy bread. Like, we’ve become so accustomed to being so comfortable and to have so many things at our disposal, that when we don’t get them immediately, they derail us. And why are we letting these things derail us? Like these things are not things that should upset us, these things are not the things that we should be complaining about. And it’s all about a shift in perspective.

Jordan 11:14
So you’re suggesting that we and we joke about like our firstworldproblems, I think we all agree like that, even that phrase helps us take a step back and be like, okay, like, this is really not this huge deal. But it has the capacity to become a huge deal if I let

Rosanna 11:29
right. And you know, and that’s not to say, you know, our firstworldproblems aside, that, just because we are blessed, and we do have a lot, that it doesn’t mean that our lives are not easier without struggle, right? We may have clean water and food and a home. But a lot of people have a lot of other things going on in their lives that are serious, you know, whether it’s anxiety or depression, or like, like a relationship, like whatever it is, like there are heard things, people without jobs, people losing jobs, people’s kids are struggling, they don’t know how to help them. Like, there are a lot of serious things. But even with those problems, whether it’s financial, emotional, whatever, there are still things in our life to be grateful for. And I think that’s part of it, too. It’s not, even if there are hard things, we can still be grateful, we can still be thankful. And we can still choose joy in those circumstances.

Jordan 12:25
You ready for some q&a?

Rosanna 12:27
Yeah. Would you want to start us off?

Jordan 12:29
Yeah. Because I just have a question that kind of stems from that. So it seems like I’m just gonna ask you to explain that more. So it seems like what you’re saying is that, in any given circumstance, we have equal opportunity for focusing on what’s wrong or what we don’t have, or focusing on what’s right. And what we do have. So can you can you just explain that a little bit more like, how does gratitude become I hate to use the cliche, but how does gratitude become an attitude or a habit?

Rosanna 13:00
I think, when I was thinking about this topic, and you know, even just do some research with those statistics, and we’ve touched on this before in previous episodes, where we kind of have this tendency to grumble. And so it’s choosing gratitude over grumbling. I printed this chart because I’ve seen this before. And usually like it’s like, on mommy blogs, and all of that kind of things. And at the top, it says I am grateful for, okay, and so there’s a list of all of these things that are like perceived hardships, and they are okay, I’m home with our kids a lot. I still work but I’m home with them a lot. And the days are long. The years are short, but the days are long. And so really, lots of times I had a hard week this week, I was trying to juggle events and the kids were home and their hybrid back to school, which means they’re only there like one or two days a week and so there was a lot I was juggling, and there was a there were a lot of great things that happened our kid won an award, a character award and American character award our fifth grader won it Yeah. And it was probably one of the most intense emotions I felt in a while. But on the same day and even the next day, it was a hard day just because the kid juggle was hard. So let me share this inside as early I am grateful for and it says early wake ups. Okay, I am not a morning person. I do not like to get up any earlier. So I am grateful for early wake ups and it’s an arrow and next it says children to love

Jordan 14:28
so there’s the thing that we could complain about correct which which we which we

Rosanna 14:32
did we actually complained about early wakeups this morning we

Jordan 14:34
have to compare what time did you wake up oh yesterday I woke up with this. And so that is that is easy to kind of default to and be like ah crud like I kind of way earlier than I intended to today the sun isn’t out yet.

Rosanna 14:46
The kids are awake, or the puppy has to go out right for us. It’s the new puppy so it’s like early wakeups a new puppy to the family. So it’s kind of like shifting that mentality. Okay, so then also house to clean. I am grateful for a house to clean right now. And grateful for chores or other things that they have to do. But that means we have a safe place to live. Laundry to do. I am grateful for laundry to do means we have clothes to wear, right? There are people in the world who do not have close to where they’re not clean either. I am grateful for dirty dishes means we have food to eat. I am grateful for crumbs under the table is like my biggest pet peeve. I don’t. How many times do I clean the floor? Day Three? Yeah. Someone said I’ve come to your house. And there’s never crumbs. I’m like, I vacuum a lot. I just I don’t like stuffing crumbs. Yeah. But crumbs under the table means we have family meals. That means we have food to eat. And we spend time gathered around our table. So it goes on and on grocery shopping to do means we have money to use to buy them toilets to clean, we have indoor plumbing and running water. Lots of noise. That means our kids are are having fun, they’re learning. They’re growing. They’re learning how to negotiate and bicker with one another right? And less questions, right? These kids are home we’re learning endless questions, a child who is learning and getting into bed tired in store? You know, I’m grateful for still being alive.

Jordan 16:00
Yeah. And so we could take So what you’re saying is you can take any complaint or any chore and just reverse and focus on Well, why don’t why do we even have this drawer in the first place? It’s because that there’s something there that I can be grateful for? Yeah, you know, can complain about work and bosses and those kinds of things. And that can be very stressful. But it’s like, well, I have a job. I have provision, you know,

Rosanna 16:22
well, and I think about your job too, because I’m so thankful for your job. Because in this whole pandemic, we’ve seen so many people lose their jobs. We’ve seen businesses shuttered like people’s livelihoods, their dreams, things that they’ve invested, right, hundreds of thousand dollars into our crumbling and I’m so thankful that you have a steady job. And even though schools are not open, you’re still working, and you’re still teaching and you have amazing insurance and like How many times are we grateful for the insurance that we have to like have health care? Yeah. So that when our kids have to go to the doctor, like

Jordan 16:52
I would say not enough, but I can honestly say like there’s there’s not a day that has gone by that I haven’t felt some degree of gratitude for for those things like just for just the like, financial security and unsteadiness and the type of work which I love. And I feel genuinely fortunate to be in the position that I’m in. So that has been a consistent feeling of gratitude even amidst like some of the just the day to day stresses and efforts and turmoil that can take place.

Rosanna 17:25
But I think it’s the the notion is like even though we have that grumbling, or like we want to grumble, you know, because we’re human, and we’re flawed and all of that, like, we have to turn our grumbling into gratitude, like, okay, yeah, like you could have your moment but like, don’t let that cloud because gratitude turns what we have into enough. And not only enough, but into more when we have what we need, then we have more than enough.

Jordan 17:47
Yeah. So I feel like it’s it’s easy for us to sit back and to say, like, look at what we have, like we of course we’re grateful for it, right? Because I feel like we have quite a bit I feel like I have I feel like the richest man in the world, just with the family that we have and the household that we can share that in. And I feel like I want nothing. But is it is it too easy for us to like sit back and say like, Oh, well, you know, everyone should be more grateful because you just focus on what you have. And it’s that easy.

Rosanna 18:22
Well, that’s one of my questions is what keeps us from being thankful? What keeps us from being grateful? Like, oh, yeah, I’m grateful for all of this. What do you think keeps us from that? Like, if you could define it or point to a few things. What do you think like? What do you think keeps us from being thankful or for grateful, like, in a more intentional way, instead of just like flippantly saying, I’m so thankful, right? Oh, I’m so grateful for this job. Yeah, like I say, it’s like lip service. It’s kind of like the I Love You, you say, but you like say it as just like a Yeah, instead of like, meaning it

Jordan 18:52
right? I think we so tend to take things for granted. Like what whatever we happen to have, it is very easy to just assume that it’s there, and not find a way to appreciate it. We often don’t appreciate something until it’s gone, you know? And so is there a way to not have that thing gone for life. And I still recognize the value that it brings to us and whatever degree. So I think that’s the first it was like just recognizing like, it’s it’s this moment of recognition. And we don’t we don’t pause, to look around ourselves enough to recognize those things that we have. In fact, it’s easier to complain because we’re so focused, like our wants are so up and down, right? So when you said we want something, it’s kind of expressing this, this lack, I want I need this or that and it’s much easier to focus on fulfilling that current gap than looking at the, like the wide chasms that are fulfilled through the things that we already have.

Rosanna 19:53
Yeah, you know, I think sometimes we even need to remember and I don’t want to say the bad but that times that we struggled, or the times we were so wanting something, and it took a while to get it, you know, in those desperate times we really like, are in tune maybe with more of like what we actually need, or what we want or what we’re thankful for when times are tough. And I, and maybe I’m wrong, or maybe it’s just me, but when things are good, I think, for me, it’s like harder to be grateful. Because you don’t see it. It’s like this expected goodness. So it’s like goodness upon goodness, and like more and more and more and more and more. And then it’s like, all of a sudden, when you’re like, slightly uncomfortable, you’re like, it kind of like knocks you down a little bit. Yeah. And so I think there’s probably in many of the areas of our life, there are times when things haven’t been great. But when we look back, and they haven’t been great, you can kind of see that like, despite like a struggle or a hardship, like there are still things around it. They’re very good. It reminds me a little bit of 2020 You know, I’ve seen so many meems t shirts, saying slogans about like, let’s pretend this never happened. You know, like all of those types of things. Like, this wasn’t the year we won. And you know, now, you know, Halloween, there’s a full moon on Halloween. So we just need the virgin to light the candle and the Sanderson sisters will emerge. And then that will be like the big shebang of like, 2020. You know, it’s like all of these jokes. And I told, I’ve told a couple friends of mine, I said, When if you really stop and look around at 2020, there have been a lot of amazing things. And I just reminded a friend of this yesterday. And she like named some like bad things for me that have happened in 2020. And then a couple of things coming up that like she’s not looking forward to. I said, Yeah, but what about you remember this and this and this. And it was like this realization of like, it’s easy to complain about this year, because 2020 was a doozy. But please take a moment today. Take a moment tomorrow, take a moment next week, whenever you’re listening to this, and just quiet yourself for a minute and look for the good. And I bet the list will be longer than you think.

Jordan 21:57
It almost sounds like a confirmation bias. Where if Overall, we tell ourselves that things are hard and that we’re we’re lacking what we need, then we’re going to find the facts that support that. And if we reverse that, if we tell ourselves that life is good, and we have the things that we need, then we’re going to find the facts to support that.

Rosanna 22:18
Okay. Yeah, it reminds you of this quote, that I found it says do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not remember that what you now have was once among the things you only hoped for. And I think that’s kind of one of those perspectives, too. Right for the longest time you like work up to saving for a house. And then you start complaining about the house of all the things you got to fix, right? for so long. You wanted a child or you tried really hard for children, and it was a struggle, and there’s some people who are still without, and you’ve got a houseful and they’re driving you crazy. Like it’s, we hoped for these things we planned for these things, we prayed for these things we saved for these things. And then we grumble about the things that we once hoped for.

Jordan 22:59
It’s like every every luxury. And every blessing is a double edged sword because it comes with responsibility. It comes with like implication of caring for it, or maintaining it, and so on. And that’s that’s where our chores come in, right? Like we have dishes to do well, that’s because we just hit Create meals and family around the table together. So there’s really no enjoying one without enduring the other right, you get to enjoy the blessings. But there’s the the tasks that come with it to facilitate those blessings in the first place.

Rosanna 23:32
Do you have a question for me? Or do I need to give you one

Jordan 23:34
you can give me I do have a few more bucks. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 23:37
I have like,

Unknown Speaker 23:38
I don’t Okay, let

Rosanna 23:39
me let’s just go to this one who taught you to be grateful? And how do we teach our children to be grateful? Because I feel like the world that we grew up in is different than the world our kids are growing up in. And so is gratefulness, this or Thanksgiving or thankfulness, the same for our kids? That it was for us? will it continue to be the same? Or will it look different because our world has changed significantly.

Jordan 24:05
I believe this and I don’t know if there’s there’s facts to validate this. But I feel like the more you have, the less grateful you may be prone to be. And so that’s the the irony of living in the land of plenty is that when you when you have a lot when you have more than what you need, it’s difficult to like find the gratitude within that. So I look at that generate generationally. And when we were growing up, it was still the land of plenty like I felt like we had everything that we needed. And the the first lessons about gratitude would come from my parents, you know, when you’re a little kid they teach you to say thank you to people when they hand you something or when they do something for you. And you know, as you get older, I think that that becomes more complex and what you’re able to identify in your life. And then I would say you have taught me a great deal about gratitude as Well, just because we’ve spent so many years together, and I feel like you’re just you’re like your wisdom and your your value centric way of living has has rubbed off in a positive way. So, I think that those are like some of the core people that have taught me to like, look at what we have, and to have that person that positive perspective towards it. But I think it’s challenging for our kids, because now that we are in a world where we can provide not just what we had, but even even more so. And there’s more entertainments, there’s more gadgets for cheaper than are available, you know, everything is bigger and brighter. And I think that compounds, what they have available to them, and because that they become accustomed to that, like their their norm, in a sense is just say, like, a little higher than what our norm was, in terms of the experiences and the materials that they’re exposed to. So I think it does present this challenge to today’s parents to in the midst of that, still teach them to take a step back and recognize what they have.

Rosanna 26:08
Well, it makes me think of friends of ours who are Indian. And they took their kids to India, like last December for three or four weeks. And just like the culture, there is different, like, obviously, there’s a lot of poverty there. There’s a lot of kids in the streets who like you know, don’t even have like basic needs or necessities, and even kids in houses that are like house maids, but their children, these children are like really never go to school. And there, they are allowed to like live with the family in an act like to serve them. And I just remember the couple like kind of telling us about like this realization to their kids that like, not everybody has, like the schooling that you have. And like that’s a privilege. And that’s something we should be thankful for and grateful for. And that like the rest of the world doesn’t live the way that we do. And so even just getting them to see what’s outside of their immediate community and neighborhood and state and country like the the more we expose them to things that are outside of the norm for them. Maybe the more that their eyes are opened up as to what they really do have because they don’t know anything else than other than what they see right in front of them. Because everything here is the same. And everybody, most people have more than the same or more. Yeah, and nobody has less. Yeah. So they live a very comfortable life. So I think teaching of gratefulness, I’m not saying like yes, take your children to a third world country and have them look around. But like, what opportunities are you providing? Like? Are you volunteering together? For Feed My Starving Children? Or at a soup kitchen? Are you buying less gifts for each other? And more from a Giving Tree? This like? How are you explaining how the rest of the world works? outside of you could recognize

Jordan 27:47
like in the position that you’re in? Yeah, that was gonna be one of my questions, too. Is there a natural connection between gratitude and charity?

Rosanna 27:55
Um, I have another quote,

Jordan 27:58
one step ahead of me.

Rosanna 28:00
Let me just find it. This is by W. Clement stone, and he says, if you are really thankful, what do you do? You share? And so how do we get to a place of feeling so thankful for what we have, that it’s no longer about getting more, but that it’s about sharing it and giving it away to others?

Jordan 28:20
Mm hmm. Yeah. And, you know, going back to, you know, talking about some friends of ours, I’ve heard this from from your family as well, right, a family of immigrants, they’ve expressed the same thing where like, where they came from, they didn’t have and when they came to the United States, like, of course, like one of the first holidays that they adopt, they become acclimated to is thanksgiving to recognize, like, compared to what they came from, and, you know, contrasting that to what they now have, and enjoying that with one another. Enjoying that with their children is kind of a significant attitude that they adopt.

Rosanna 28:56
Well, and that’s what I like about my parents not being from here, sometimes, they know what it’s like to not have all of the things that we have. And then when they came here, they work so hard to give us the things that they didn’t have that they wanted for us, including education and, and those types of things. And so, you know, like, I don’t know what it’s like to not have a meal, or to have to share a loaf of bread with like, 10 people in your family and like, that’s dinner, like, that’s foreign to me. So like when my dad when we’re all together at a family dinner on a Sunday, and he kind of pushes himself away from the table and he’s full and he says, Thanks, God, we ate again today. Like, because he knows what it means to not eat or to go to bed hungry. And it’s like that reminder that like, yeah, I maybe wouldn’t have said that because that’s normal for us. But it’s his recollection of not having that that reminds him to be thankful. And he’s not, you know, a religious person, but he’s genuinely thankful for those things.

Jordan 29:55
That was gonna be one of my questions to kind of stemming off of that is like does gratitude need to be Like directed towards someone or something? Like, do you need to, like be thankful to God or thankful, like towards people? Or can it be a little bit like just more broad is just an attitude that’s that’s just generally directed?

Rosanna 30:16
I think it’d be all of those things, you know, I think everyone’s expression of their thankfulness of their blessings of their beliefs are different. And so some will, you know, thank God for that. Some will write it in a journal. Some will pray, some will meditate over it, some will directly share it with someone, Jordan, I’m so thankful for you for partnering with me and raising these kids that it’s not just my response, like, I think those are all ways to do it. And I think you have to find what fits and what’s right for you. But I think it has to be a daily practice. It’s not a every year on Thanksgiving kind of practice. It’s not a once a month practice, like, you know, you give your dog his heartworm medicine once it like, I think it has to be a daily practice. Mm hmm. That’s my thought.

Jordan 31:02
Yeah. All right. So let’s get into some of the takeaways then. Because obviously, this is very timely. And that’s we’re talking about this right around Thanksgiving. But like stemming off of that, we realize this is this is daily, this is year round kind of attitude that we should be adopting.

Rosanna 31:19
So I think you’d really have to just be ready to shift your mindset to having a daily attitude of gratitude. So if you’re going to do that, I think there are maybe three things that you can do. And so I would just say that you would, whether it’s through a journal, a gratitude list, which I think I created in episode one. And so maybe we can link it to this. It’s like a sheet. The big things in the little things that we’re thankful for us pursuit gratitude guide, yes, lucky for you, I have a little design background, and they came up with like a little worksheet grateful, got our excuse, yes, or our logo on it. But like download that, whether it’s through prayer, or meditation, right, like you, there’s all of these, like prayer and meditation apps that can all just be about like 365 days of gratitude. And so they kind of just walk you through a meditation and at the end of it, like, you know, whether you internalize it or speak it out or write it down, but it can like lead you through that, right, we all have two minutes a day to be able to jot down a list. So maybe it’s the first thing you do when you wake up. The last thing you do before bed, something you do with your family over your gather. So whether it’s breakfast or dinner, like cultivating that as a group, but vowing to do it daily. And so then you only do it five out of the seven days a week. But that’s, that’s something that’s a change, and it puts you in a right mindset. The second I had mentioned earlier would be to remember the bad or remember the times of want or the times of not having enough, or the the times that were hard, so that when you go when you revisit that feeling, it makes you overflow with the joy of what you have now. And then the third would be to actively shift your mindset, from expectation to Thanksgiving, from grumbling to gratitude. So even in the things, right, even in the moments of these are the days, you don’t want to be in it. You know, right then is a good time to remind yourself, these are my kids and I love them. This kitchen is a mess and the pots and the pans need scrubbing. But man did we enjoy our dinner together. So shifting to one another to

Jordan 33:20
Yes, if we if one of us is feeling you know, more prone to the complaint or the focusing on the bad, then we can try to balance one another out. And I know it’s gonna get annoying, like, just be grateful for the meal that we had be grateful for the love in the household.

Rosanna 33:33
And that’s okay. Because when you’re annoyed with the dog, I’ll say, Amanda is all about the family memories. We’re doing it for the kids.

Jordan 33:38
Yeah. So in the moment, it I think will be annoying, to be honest. But it is it is healthy to continually use one another to counterbalance that mindset and keep us focused on what we know is genuinely what we value. Yeah, I

Rosanna 33:52
mean, I think since we started this podcast, this, that has been a good thing that you and I kind of remind each other and hold each other accountable because we’re having these conversations about these topics. And it’s good to know that we’re not just coming on these mics, looking at the camera and saying, Oh, these are the things you should do. And then like we’re total trolls to each other when we log off, or when we stopped the microphone. It’s causing us to hold each other accountable. And so hopefully, you’re listening and you’re sharing and you’re doing the same thing with the people in your life to

Jordan 34:18
exactly so yeah, these conversations we hope are really just models for the conversations you can share with the important people in your life and certainly has helped us think of a long way with some of our attitudes and perspectives and certainly in the way of gratitude.

Rosanna 34:33
So from our family to yours from the relentless pursuit podcast to wherever you’re listening, we’re wishing you a very happy Thanksgiving. We hope you take a moment to give thanks to turn your grumbling into gratitude and to not let comparison be the thief of your joy. So we’ll see you next time.

Jordan 34:52
Bye Bye, everybody. Bye. Thanks so much for listening to today’s show. We hope you will use this feature conversation is the starting point for euro. We hope you’re encouraged to think and act more intentionally.

Rosanna 35:05
If you want to learn more, you can visit our website, the relentless pursuit podcast comm where you can find notes on today’s show, plus additional blog posts, and you can subscribe to our free members list.

Jordan 35:17
Please subscribe, leave a review and share with your friends.

Rosanna 35:21
Facebook and Instagram are two great places to connect with us for daily doses of our quotable quotes behind the scenes and real time photos, videos and challenges.

Jordan 35:30
Until next time, let us know how you are taking life off autopilot

Rosanna 35:34
and relentlessly pursuing what next

 

Rosanna 0:15
Welcome to season two, episode six of the relentless pursuit podcast. This episode is titled our flaws and shortcomings.

Jordan 0:23
That’s right. So we’re gonna trim this from a couple hour conversation that we could have to our typical 30 to 40 minutes. But this is one of those conversations where we are gonna get, I think, pretty vulnerable with one another, because we’re really going to talk about ourselves and with all of as well. And, you know, when we originally thinking through season two, this was one of those that I kind of proposed, and I never really thought it would make the final cut. So I’m very glad to be here having this conversation with you. Now, I think it’s necessary that we have it.

Rosanna 1:00
He proposed this, we we hadn’t even yet finished recording season one. And we were starting to generate a list of ideas for season two, when we were driving on a road trip, because we had a bunch of time in the car. And so like as we were talking and thinking about things, we would just like add it to the the note section on our phone. And he’s like, we should do an entire episode, calling out our specific individual flaws and shortcomings. And I looked at him and I said, Are you insane? You want me to publicly talk about the ways in which I think I fall short as a human being and share that with the people who are listening. And it’s not even just an audience of people who don’t know us like there are people who know us that are listening?

Jordan 1:39
Well, they could maybe add to the list.

Rosanna 1:41
I’m sure they could. But you want me to admit that publicly? I go I and I had a couple words for him. But here we are having this conversation.

Jordan 1:49
Yes, yes, it was good. So you know, I think it’s, it’s really important for us to to have this conversation with one another because it’s it’s great for people to be with other people that they trust and with whom they can be vulnerable around with whom they can get, I think like some some feedback from and also it’s it’s great to do, I mean, a lot of what we’ll be talking about is a little bit more of like self reflection, but it’s great to have someone who knows you that you can do that alongside. And so that’s why I think it’s really important exercise that we’re about to indulge in. But maybe more importantly, something that we we don’t do enough, or we do maybe only when something goes wrong. And we have to point out or talk about one of these flaws, rather than acknowledging them, anticipating them and then making improvements to ourselves as we go.

Rosanna 2:41
So I think we’re lucky in the fact that we can do this with each other, I know that some people are in relationships that they maybe don’t feel safe for are unable to be vulnerable with the other person in a relationship. So this doesn’t necessarily just have to be your spouse if you’re not there. But even having trusted people in your corner, whether it’s, you know, siblings, or parents or friends that you trust to be able to do this sort of thing with.

Jordan 3:05
Yeah. And it makes me think of like other times, where sometimes we quote unquote, admit a fault of ours, around someone else, almost in a sense of fishing for compliments, like, I feel like when we were dating, he would do that, like, Ah, you know, I’m so fat. And that’s my opportunity to sweep in and be like, Oh, no, you’re not Honey, come on, you know, to try to build you up. I think this is different. Because anything that I you know, I’m going to say anything you’re going to say like I think we can both acknowledge, and then just talk about maybe why that is and come up with some ideas for how to strengthen that. Turn a weakness or a flaw a virus into something that’s strong.

Rosanna 3:42
But I think that takes a level of maturity and understanding and the mindset of wanting to be better. Because, you know, some people just depending on their background, or past relationships, like they might carry some baggage or some trauma that doesn’t allow them to see that or do that. And so that might not be as easy for them to do. Whereas if a partner or a spouse said like, I really want to talk to you about something I’m seeing in you. And you know, expressing whatever that that fault or shortcoming or failure or whatever that nuance is and then having someone really just respond to that in a very negative or a way that is misunderstood. So,

Jordan 4:27
Right, they can keep having a conversation like this under the wrong pretense can really lead to some backlash. I mean, yeah, can you imagine me sitting I’d be like, Rosanna, we’re gonna go through, I prepared a list of things that are wrong with you. And I’d like for you to receive these and make all the appropriate, you know,

Rosanna 4:48
…to my liking, if you could just adjust in a manner to click to the left and click to the right then we should we should be good.

Jordan 4:53
Right. So I can’t imagine that going very well. And also, this is a give and take as well. We’re both opening up anything that’s really important. So I can’t, I wouldn’t recommend you like thinking through everything someone else has wrong with him and inviting them to sit down so you can delineate those items to them. But really, it was all I mean, let me describe the format of the show. So what we’re saying and I did was we sat down and on our own came up with what we would consider three of our biggest, how would we phrase it three of our biggest flaws or shortcomings.

Rosanna 5:30
I wouldn’t even say a flaw like a shortcoming. Like areas of improvement, we recognize about ourselves that like are not top notch.

Jordan 5:38
Okay. And for fun, we also came up with one for the other person that we have not yet disclosed. So this can get really interesting, really fast, depending on how that goes.

Rosanna 5:51
As we reveal, live on the air.

Jordan 5:53
Exactly. So I’m looking forward to getting to that part and hearing all the wonderful feedback that you have in store for me.

Rosanna 6:00
Okay. But all with the intention of what?

Jordan 6:03
With the intention of, of growing, I wanted to bring this up, because I recently read a book called Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke. She is a professional poker player. But in this book, and in her own life has taken the principles of excellent poker playing, and you apply that to all the decisions that you make. And she said, one of the things that poker players do, but actually all of us do, as well is when things go right we tend to take the credit. And so like in a poker hand, when you when you’re like, Oh, it’s because I’m a good player. But when things go wrong, we tend to blame someone else, or we tend to blame just bad luck in general. And that’s what happens in poker, you can imagine, like, oh, shoot, like I did everything I was supposed to do. And I still lost, it’s just bad luck. But in life as well, we’re relatively quick to point fingers. And so this book does an excellent job helping individuals think through decision making. But it also points out that it can be a constructive exercise to really like think through who you are, think through where some of the deficits are. So when you are engaging in any sort of planning or any sort of decision making, that you’re aware of where those gaps may be, and that helps you make better decisions, but it also gives you areas to reinforce. And so that is really why we’re having this conversation is because we have to if we intend on growing we have to be self-reflective. And like I said, that’s that’s self-reflective process is strengthened when you have someone to do it with.

Rosanna 7:37
Well, one thing I think is funny is that just as humans we like naturally tend to want to hide and are afraid of admitting like our faults or failures and our shortcomings. And now now this example is not one that’s like, Okay, this is like a fault. But like, have you ever like fallen asleep watching a movie, like we fall in this one of us has fallen asleep watching a movie, but the other person is still awake? And then you look over and be like, Are you asleep? And what’s the first thing you say? No, no, no, no sleeping? Like,

Jordan 8:01
Why do we even do that?

Rosanna 8:02
Why can’t we just say, like, why can’t we own who we are? The fact that we’re exhausted and that this movie is boring, and that, like we couldn’t keep our eyes open. But like, right away, we’ll be like, I wasn’t sleeping. Or like, you know, same thing like, babe, you’re snoring? I’m not, you know, you know, like, why can’t we just admit it? So I think part of it is just like, knowing who we are. And none of us are perfect. But I think for me, and maybe it’s I don’t know, if it’s just to me or women in general, we want to like portray this idea of being perfect of having it all together, like, Oh, yeah, you’re the she’s such a good mom and be like, what, what are you basing that off of what you see on my Instagram feed, I’m not posting me melting down or the kids melting down. You know, it’s just it’s what what you think you see. And so this obsession with us wanting to be perfect, or thinking that we need to have it all together all of the time that we can’t own the fact that we have some areas we need to work on if we if we want to be better.

Jordan 8:58
Yeah, I think that’s a much better story to tell. So I mean, in a sense, there’s a story that we want others to believe about us. But that applies to ourselves. There’s a story we want to believe about ourselves as well, which is why we’re quicker to cover over and deny our faults rather than address them.

Rosanna 9:14
Yeah. Well, and I think this was recently, you told me something like, not that we were arguing by any means, but you like pointed out something and I was very quick to like, nip what you said. And then I remember like walking away and kind of like processing, like the conversation that we had. And I was like, Oh, he was really right. And I kind of just ended the conversation because I didn’t want to be told that like I was wrong or that I like overstepped and and I remember coming back to you, I mean, the same day, maybe 20 minutes later and be like, you know, I shouldn’t have said that. Like you were actually right. And I felt hurt by it because I didn’t want to admit to myself that I was wrong. And so that is not something you know, five months ago or five years ago that I would have done I would have like kind of brooded over it for a while and been mad at you for a little bit, you know? Yeah, yeah. But you know, that natural tendency of like feeling like because somebody else points something out about us like, we’re the ones that are hurt when maybe what we’re doing is hurting the other person. So just being able to listen and process.

Jordan 10:17
Yeah. Alright, so let’s get to the fun. So each list is…

Rosanna 10:22
Your idea of fun and my idea of fun are a little different.

Jordan 10:25
There has to be a dose of discomfort with with your fun, I think. All right. So, we we have our list here of our list of three for ourselves. Would you care to go first? Or would you care to go second?

Rosanna 10:39
I will let you choose.

Jordan 10:42
Then I’d say you go first. Okay, ladies, First Ladies first.

Rosanna 10:46
All right. So if I had to say what one of my faults or shortcomings is, I think the first thing I would say is that I am uptight.

Jordan 10:56
What do you mean by that?

Rosanna 10:57
Okay, so I feel like I’ve called myself this a couple times, like the momager, which they call I’ve mentioned, like they call you, right? Like I manage our kids, our house, our calendar, our lives, the laundry, the groceries, meal, prepping, you know, just where everybody has to be like logistics. And so like, I’m always so like, focused on like, what needs to happen and when and how and like, Okay, a little laundry has to go. And now because soccer socks have to be cleaned for tomorrow. And like I’m constantly my mind is always so busy. And so focused on what needs to get done, that it’s hard for me to let go.

Jordan 11:32
Okay. Okay, so this is an I found this too – there’s a thin line between strengths and weaknesses. And I think that that line is just I would, I would just define it as excess. So really, what you’re describing is a strength in the sense that you are, you know, the logistics coordinator of the household and of many other things. And that that’s necessary, right? And that’s a strength – things are organized. We were never scrambling last minute for something. Those are good things, right?

Rosanna 12:00
We’re always prepared, right? And this is what I said in my notes. I said, so here’s what’s good about this,. Like when you’re type A, like, everything runs very smoothly here. Everything is very efficient. Nobody ever forgets a lunch or a soccer practice or like everybody is where they need to be and has what they need all of the time. Here’s what’s bad about it is that sometimes I’m so focused on the task, or making sure that there are no deficits that I am not living in the moment and enjoying it. And I think the area I see it most I sometimes see it with the kids because I’m like so focused on like getting them in the car and on time and that baba baba baba baba, that, like I, there are some tender moments that I miss, because I’m too fixated on the end result and not the means on the way.

Jordan 12:44
I’ve heard. Some people are described as like task oriented people and others are people oriented people. And I think you’re good at both. But when this facet of your personality, maybe kind of runs a little bit excessively, then you’re much more focused on the task, and you miss out on the personable moments along the way.

Rosanna 13:04
Right. And people would describe me as personable, but those are in moments where like, I am not managing anything else. And I’m like supposed to be personable. I’m probably one of the most personable people. But when I have to…second to you. But when the two mix, what takes over is this like management mentality. And although I see that with the kids, sometimes I think I see it with you most. I am unable to relax, my mind is always like, like 15 head steps ahead of where I’m at. So sometimes it’s hard for me to let go.

Jordan 13:39
Sometimes I mean, we have it’s a most of our time together is of quality. But sometimes it’s like, Alright, let’s have an intimate conversation. Okay. All right. So tomorrow at 8:30 I have a quote, timeout. This is not my idea of an intimate conversation, but there’s there’s some necessity along with that, too.

Rosanna 13:55
So and so that’s something to that I think. I love my mom, I think I’d bring up like every third episode, but she is someone who kind of helps me see that too when she says things like you do more in the first three hours of your day than some people accomplish in a week. So give yourself some grace. And like take a moment to breathe or take a moment to do nothing. And so more and more each week I try and find those moments where I’m just okay like the bathroom if it doesn’t get cleaned today. It’ll get clean tomorrow and if it’s not tomorrow and it’s next week Thursday, so be it ain’t nobody coming over and using my bathroom upstairs no one can see the state of it except for me so like to take some of that pressure off of the to do.

Jordan 14:39
Yeah. Okay. All right. I will I will go into my list here.

Rosanna 14:45
It’s folded. He’s he’s keeping it private.

Jordan 14:47
No. You already looked at this. So there’s nothing private about this. Yeah, I’m just not sure where to start here. Okay, mine. I’ll pick this one because I think this is this is similar, but it goes in a different direction for me. So I’m more of I would just say I can be, I can be a thinker, which will, I think, caused me to there’s many moments where it requires action. And it requires like a response. And I’m in the moment, but because my, my default is to, like take a step back to try to think to try to absorb to try to understand. And I would say that, that that can be a strength that in some cases, but many other cases, I’ve missed so many opportunities where something should have been said or something should have been done. And I think it also leads to I would call it like this analysis paralysis as well, where I mean, how many things have i have i just like endlessly like thought through or like even even studied or read about and then there’s no no action that takes place? Or if it does happen, and happens well after the fact?

Rosanna 16:04
I mean, yeah, I mean, I’ve seen you do that. Because you are, well, what’s one of the terms we’ve used to describe you through the years? Cerebral. You’re just like a thinker, and you’re very smart, and you’re very inquisitive, and you want all of the information in front of you, and you want to weigh it equally, but that takes a whole lot of time. Which is the opposite of me, because I’m a responder like someone says something, I think about it, I process it, I like spit it out. So what’s good about that, for the two of us is that both of us aren’t like always responding right away, one of one of us kind of steps back and…

Jordan 16:39
That could be a little volatile. Yeah, right. So I can’t think of I mean, I think the the humorous example is when you’re in a moment, and like, somebody makes you mad, and you don’t say anything, but then like in the shower the next day, then you think of the thing that you want to say, like, Oh, you know what, I should have told that guy, you know? That is that is that is you know, my many moments my life, like, in a nutshell, where there’s there’s things where I’m like, Oh, I I should have said this, I should have responded this way. And and but instead of doing that to felt like I wanted to, there’s just more processing that I needed to take place. What if I’m wrong? What if I don’t know the full story? And then I miss step and make a bigger fool of myself. So it’s like, I’m not gonna say anything. I’m not gonna do anything at this moment. I will later but only after I put the requisite time and effort into making sure I get it right.

Rosanna 17:31
So how do you feel like you’re working to like combat that at this point? Like, you know that like, you like you’re, you’re, you’re overthinking paralyzes you from doing. Do you feel like you take that your Look, you’re working on steps to like, take more action in a quicker amount of time and not worry about the like, being right, but like responding so that the moment doesn’t pass by and then that like that chance is gone?

Jordan 17:58
I’m not really sure what to do. I mean, it’s so strong of a default that. To me, it’s kind of the same thing now like how how do we understand myself in this mode? Sure. What should I study to help me?

Rosanna 18:09
Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness, can you stop? That’s awful!

Jordan 18:13
Right. But what what, what do you do? I mean, if if the default is overthinking, how do I how do I not think my way out of it?

Rosanna 18:24
Oh, gosh, I don’t know. But do you see how good you see how that fault or shortcoming whatever however you want to, and it’s not a fault, because to think something through so thoroughly to make a correct decision is a great thing.

Jordan 18:38
Right? It can be an asset on many occasion.

Rosanna 18:40
Correct. But do you think you’ve, you’ve seen that brought to light in in your career path? And how that has hindered you or helped you in various paths? Right?

Jordan 18:51
Yeah, I would say so. Because there’s a lot of instances that come up that kind of require a response. And so I don’t feel I don’t feel in control enough to even if I do give a response, I doubt if that is the correct thing to have done. And I think that that doubt becomes visible becomes evident. And, you know, I’m calling into question what I’ve done, and I need to go back and process that and then maybe, maybe I can support that decision after the fact. But within the moment, as I’m thinking through it with with others it it just, it feels uncomfortable to be in that position for me.

Rosanna 19:28
So do you think it’s been helpful to be in more positions like that to stretch you out of like, letting those scenarios paralyze you? And like, almost like sharpening that, that tool of like having to respond or does it just make you so uncomfortable that you want to remove yourself from situations like that?

Jordan 19:45
I don’t know, because like we’re saying like it, it can be a strength in many instances as well. So I think it’s just becoming more cognizant of when it should be leveraged and when I need to just kind of you know, just run with my gut and be okay with it.

Rosanna 20:05
So should we go back to me then back to you? Okay, so back to me. So I think this one is kind of related to what you’re talking about where you’ll kind of just stop and you’ll like, think for a while and then and then come up with the proper response based on all of this thinking and analysis. I would say my second fault and shortcoming is that I have a very short fuse. And honestly, like, very like, I’m like this like very heated person, but of the two of us, right, like in like, parenting? Who’s gonna be the one that’s gonna yell at the kids? It’s totally me. Like, it takes very little for me to be like, call you out, shut you down. You’re done.

Jordan 20:48
Yeah, I don’t, then yeah, that happens. But I don’t see that as a flaw necessarily. Like, like, I would consider I would describe you kind of like this, this one of those quick like, passing summer storms, where you got to put up with a little thunder and lightning along the way. But ultimately, like it you you saturate the the earth with your water, and it passes and the sun comes out pretty quickly afterwards, as well.

Rosanna 21:17
Oh, that makes me feel very, so much better about how I feel about I think, you know,

Jordan 21:23
But I never have to wonder what you’re thinking. It’s like, here it is.

Rosanna 21:28
There’s a crack of thunder. A bolt of lightning.

Jordan 21:29
Okay, now I know. Yeah.

Rosanna 21:34
I’ve kind of we’ve talked about this a little bit in like, just how, like, I respond in other episodes. But I think as a mom, you know, I spend a lot of time with our kids, I’m mostly home with them. I do work, but it’s, you know, weekends or even, you know, evenings. And so I do a lot of the child rearing. So like on a on a day where it’s a 12 hour day with the kids. Yeah, I mean, like, right, you’re, you’re there to correct and admonish, and sometimes punish your kids in order to train them what is right and what is wrong, and what expectations are, and when they’re loud. And you have to be louder to kind of like, get their attention. But that’s something that I worry about, in the sense that, like, people will see me with my kids. And we have fun, and we do great things. And I’m intentional with them people like Oh, she’s the perfect mom, like, you know, they think I’m, you know, some kind of Disney Princess and the birds are, you know, they fold my clothes in the morning for me, and everything is great. You know, being a mom is hard. And it’s I think anybody that’s a mom knows that you’re not happy 100% of the time, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows, but I think that’s hard for me to know that, like, I have to, like, that’s part of like who I am. And that’s part of like, I don’t know, that’s part of who I am, which I’m trying to work on. I’m trying to be like more Zen in the moment. And you’re I mean, you’re so good with the kids for a variety of reasons.

Jordan 22:55
Oh yeah. I never yell. Never blow a gasket.

Rosanna 22:57
Well, I mean, you do but take a take takes more for you than it does for me, but you’re like, you know, you’re you will, you will verbally like talk them through the scenario and the decision they made and how that’s wrong in this like, very calm manner. And so like, I observe that and I’m like, okay, like, I need to do more of that, like, maybe that’s more of the approach that I need to take, like, I can still be a good you know, I’m, I’m a good mom as I am. But I could be better if I took a more like gentle approach. And then there are times where the kids are not at all responding to the gentle approach. And I feel like I have to yell to get their attention. So you know, it’s a it’s a double-edged sword. So here I am publicly saying that I yell at my kids. Yeah. And that’s like, hard for me to want to admit because as we said before, like, not that I’m trying to pretend that I’m perfect, but like, you know, that’s hard for me to say that.

Jordan 23:52
Yeah. Well, I think there’s been multiple moments where I’ve seen the I’ve seen the storm begin to rumble and I’ve tried…

Rosanna 24:03
Take shelter!

Jordan 24:06
I’ve tried to quell it just be like, we’re saying, like, this is not the issue or This is not the time to, you know, to go there then maybe more grumbled towards me then then towards them at that instance, or whatever else might be going on. But I think that’s one thing that can you know, it can be that that voice to just be like, Alright, like, here’s, here’s what’s going on. Let’s remember this conversation and try to recalibrate.

Rosanna 24:31
And we had talked about this in that last last episode, that like piece of accountability. Like, I feel like this is something that I want to work on. I’ve told you that and you’ve done that where you like, look at me be like, this is you know, their boys and that’s what’s helpful to like, how a mom would respond to like what boys are doing, which does not make sense to me. You know, you are a You are a man, you were a boy, you’re like, Oh no, this is like a totally normal thing. This is nothing to like get upset about. So it’s, you know, when there’s a little bit of accountability There, it’s like you can help me like, understand and process something so that I don’t kind of give into that fault or to that shortcoming that I see. And you’re like, Okay, I’m kind of like train me up a little bit.

Jordan 25:11
Yeah. Okay. Challenge accepted. Just don’t shoot the messenger.

Rosanna 25:17
All right. What’s number two, I want to see what what else you’ve got.

Jordan 25:21
I actually have so we’re supposed to choose three, I had a, I wrote down more than three. So now I have to select here. You You won’t be at all surprised by this. But this this bothers me about me. And one thing, I think I’ve improved on…

Rosanna 25:37
I feel like nothing bothers you. If there’s a fault, it’s that nothing bothers you. You’d like such a cool cucumber all the time.

Jordan 25:43
This? Well, this bothers me about me. And I don’t think you’ll be surprised when I mention it. But I think because I like to maybe stemming off of the first one where I’d like to think through things and kind of come to my own assessment of whatever the topic is. I do have a strong propensity to think I know what is right. Right. Yeah, look in your face. It’s like, yeah, totally.

Rosanna 26:10
I don’t know what you’re talking about. This is news to me.

Jordan 26:13
And it’s, you know, in part, because I have poured in many instances, but not all, you know, poured a lot of time and energy into like examining a particular topic or an issue or just ruminated on enough to develop a strong opinion about, you know, whatever it is. And so when someone has something that’s different, I, even if it’s like a neutral subject, where they just do something differently, like sometimes I can look a tad askance at their…

Rosanna 26:45
Your choice of diction during these patterns are just uncanny.

Jordan 26:48
Yeah. So. And that, that bothers me about myself, because I would prefer not to have that. I don’t know what you would call like that, that kind of wiring, that way of thinking, that is even just internally like just wondering if what this other person is saying what this other person is doing is, you know, up to par, because in most cases, like, it just doesn’t matter doesn’t affect me, it doesn’t mean anything. But I wouldn’t say I’m a super judgmental person. But I think there are many moments where just internally I’m thinking to myself, like, that’s not the way I would do it. And I love being around people who are just not that way. And I feel like most people are, are not that way, where you just totally comfortable around them, you feel like 100%, like, just accepted by them and loved by them, like regardless of who you are. And I’m grateful everyone who just accepts and hangs out with me. So I think that that’s, that’s one area that I’ve I’ve been conscious of for a long time. And I’ve tried to just consciously like, correct my own thinking.

Rosanna 27:55
So you’re saying that you’re too judgmental of others? Is a flaw is one of your flaws? Because, okay, I mean, I feel like to some extent, we’re all like that, oh, that’s how she did it. That’s not how I would have done it, like, great. Like, don’t we have to write anybody who’s who does something different than us? I would say, I bet. I bet most people could agree, to some extent as one of their faults is being judgmental of others. But I feel like as I’ve gotten older, and as our like, friends and family have become more diverse, I think it becomes easier to like, accept differences, because not everyone is just like you. And so you see a variation of things where people are still good. And they may hold the same values, but their, the way they display them or like the way they –

Jordan 28:47
Just the way they think or the way that they can run life, right?

Rosanna 28:50
The values are the same, but like their life may look different. So so it’s not it’s not that you’re judging them, you’re like, oh, hmm, we can think the same things or have the same values or beliefs, but like, the way you live your life is very different than ours, because, you know, you’ve chosen to orient it this way. And I think that’s good to see that it doesn’t have to all look one way but that the values and beliefs are similar.

Jordan 29:14
That’s what I was gonna say is the the antidote is exposure to like more diversity when if you’re around people who the majority of whom do things just like you, then you may be feel more comfortable around them. But at the same time, when someone is outside of that circle in any regard, then that’s it’s gonna look strange. But if you’re around a lot of people who I guess look strange, in a sense, then it stops really being a thing, and you don’t have to think about it.

Rosanna 29:42
Well, I think what I found is by hanging out with people who are different than you, what I’m always surprised by is although they may look different than you, so whether that’s you know, for a variety of reasons. To the core, we’re so similar and that’s like what always, like, there’s like this wow moment every time where I’m like, we couldn’t be any more different yet. We are the same. Yeah. So it’s kind of cool. Yeah. Total tangent there. But –

Jordan 30:10
No I think it’s right on, right on point.

Rosanna 30:12
All right. So then are we at number three? Okay, so number three, I would say, I’m very critical about myself. And I think that’s a fault that I’ve been working on, more recently, to correct. Because I think I would say like the last year and a half to two years, I feel like I was letting how I perceived myself hold me back from what I’m capable of. Like, I would give myself excuses for why I couldn’t do certain things. Because I didn’t have a good enough perception of maybe like, who I was, or where maybe there was some, like, actual talent or good that I could be using, because I was kind of like, afraid of who I am. It was hard for me to acknowledge my strengths, it was hard of me to be proud of the good things about me, when I spent like, a big part of my life not loving myself for who I was, because I was always focused on trying to be like somebody else. So I think working on trying to do things outside of the box, has given me like the tools to like, really grow this last year and be like, okay, these are, these are things I’m good at, these are things I’m not good at, like, I’m gonna be okay with what I’m good at, I’m gonna work at what I’m not good at. And if people like me, then that’s fine. But at this point, I finally feel like I like who I am. Yeah. And I like what I see. But for a really long time, like, I let my own kind of critical voice in my head keep me from trying things because I thought I wasn’t good enough to do them.

Jordan 31:47
Yeah. I think we all have that voice. And it’s just what volume do we allow it to be turned up? And how much, how much do we listen to it?

Rosanna 31:56
Well, I think for a long time, for me, it had to do more with my appearance, where it wasn’t like comfortable, or I thought like I should look different, or you know –

Jordan 32:05
I’ve always been comfortable with your appearance.

Rosanna 32:06
– weight, or like health or like lack thereof over we’ve been together a long time been together, how many years 20, 21, 22 and then get married for 14. And so obviously, through that time, I’ve had kids, so we’ve gained weight, we’ve lost weight. And so you know, looking at yourself and kind of not recognizing who you are, like, takes a little bit of like a mental emotional toll on you. Because when you’re not comfortable with how you look, you’re also not comfortable around other people. And what’s interesting is that no matter what I looked like to you, like to you I always looked fine. And I don’t want to say like fine, like, okay, you look fine. Like you’ve always loved me –

Jordan 32:48
You always looked like you. You always looked beautiful. Like it never really seems to fluctuate with a number on scale.

Rosanna 32:52
You really couldn’t keep your hands off me, it didn’t really matter. But to me, it mattered. And there were times where like that kept, you know, just kind of wanted to recoil because I was not comfortable with myself. But then I let that kind of carry over into other realms where like, I should have been trying and doing different things, but I let like my discomfort with my appearance keep me from putting myself out there.

Jordan 33:16
Yeah. Yeah.

Rosanna 33:18
I think that’s the girl thing that sometimes you don’t understand. Like, when I talk about things with, you know, things, things in the woman realm. He’s like, I just really can’t connect to this right now. Like, I know that I’m your best friend. But like you said, maybe you should like talk to your, uh, your friend or your mom about this, because this just is not computed in guy world.

Jordan 33:37
I can understand it logically. But yeah, I mean, that can be a struggle, but I think in terms of appearance, they say that women will tend to, like see themselves like, lesser than what they are. And men will tend to think they’re more attractive than what they really are.

Rosanna 33:54
Well we’ve had this conversation. As you get ready in the mirror and you’re like “I was looking at myself today when I was brushing my hair, and I thought MAN I look good!”

Jordan 33:59
And I thought checking myself. Yes, so lucky. Yeah. But I think that – I think appearance is one aspect of that but I think for you and I think for the typical person, there’s many areas where we have just this critical voice that tells us not to or I think especially now we compare ourselves to other people, or usually other people’s highlight reels. And that is going to make that voice a little bit louder and keep us from shining in the ways that we could be. Alright, I’ve got my third one here. Alright, so this I guess this kind of goes along with the other two but it’s another another facet of it. I am what I would call a simmerer. Alright, so if you’re if you’re the storm, that that that you know, it explodes and then it passes then I’m more like the the boiling pot of water on the stove. And many times when something bothers me you know my response is, like “everything’s fine.” I’m that person in this relationship like, Oh no, nothing’s wrong, everything’s great. What? But what I’ve, what I’ve realized is that like, while I might in other regards my life like just kind of brood over a topic until I feel like I have a sense of control over it when I’m feeling frustrated or annoyed or disappointed or like whatever that negative is, then I’m just going to internalize it and brood over it until it actually becomes bigger than it ever really needed to be. I know you agree, I guessed it, we should have come up with a prize if we guessed what the other person –

Yeah it’s like the Newlywed Game, right, you got to like hold up the sign. And if they match, you get points. Okay. Um, yeah, that’s exactly what I had for you.

Well, shoot, I had other ones on my list, I should have should have brought those out. Okay, well, let’s, let’s explore this one. And if we have time, then we can get into some other other faults and flaws. Okay. So I think it’s because like, for me, I want, I don’t want to feel negative about anything. And I and I often don’t. So like, I’d say, 90, some percent of the time, I’m happy go lucky. So when these feelings do come in, for whatever reason, I feel like I want to I almost don’t want to admit that that’s the case. I don’t want to admit that there’s something that has come up that I think has gone wrong, or has disappointed me in some way. And so I’ll just internalize it so that I can like almost like own that feeling a little bit more. And I feel like if I express it, then it I don’t know, I almost don’t feel justified in feeling that way. Like because if I look at the everything that I have –

Rosanna 36:44
Because you don’t want to judge somebody else.

Jordan 36:46
Yeah. And I don’t want to judge somebody else or disappoint someone else by letting them know like, how they have let me down or you know, just like whatever is annoyed me so but I don’t feel just been having that feeling. So I almost want to reason myself out of it. But it backfires every time like for years. The the more you keep it in the the worst said it kind of spoils everything.

Rosanna 37:09
Yeah, I mean, we’ve had this conversation. I’ve had this conversation, we’ve had this conversation multiple times where it’s like, you could have just told me in the moment that that upset you. So then what I do is I basically follow him around the house for days being like, Hey, babe, everything, okay? And then he says, I even wrote on my sheet, oh, I’m fine. I’m fine. And then I wrote, he sits and he stews, and then I hear about it well, after the fact, when it’s too late. And like, I can’t even apologize in that moment because he’s stood on it so long. He’s actually more aggravated now than he was three days ago. And then like, there’s nothing I can do.

Jordan 37:47
If it’s about you, I’m more aggravated that you haven’t figured it out in the meantime, because your powers of, you know, telepathy –

Rosanna 37:54
But I know what the problem is. But I asked him, Hey, everything, because I need him to I say, he’s a great communicator. Like he has a blog, he writes articles, he has a podcast, but for some reason, he cannot find the words to say, I’m disappointed because or it upset me when you said this because… it’s it’s one sentence with a period for me to be like, Okay, I’m really sorry, I said, but he, for some reason, cannot find the one sentence but he will write a multi paragraph thesis and post it on the internet.

Jordan 38:28
Sure. Well, that’s, I’m not expressing my disappointment towards anyone in those either. So I have two questions for you. One is, do you think that I’ve improved in this regard over the last few years? I’m better at communicating –

Rosanna 38:42
You’ve definitely got better in communicating. We talked about those Monday nights, or like couch and together dates. And I think that was huge for us, because there was an intentional time where we could talk about anything. And so sometimes it was work, or sometimes it was, you know, just other topics. And you were just, it was like this practice of you like just communicating a feeling associated with like, what was going on and you are processing what was in your mind out loud, which seemed to help catapult you out of kind of like being in your head and making a decision about moving forward.

Jordan 39:15
Because I’ve tried to be better about it. My other question and this is kind of a weird one. But sometimes it’s hard to say something so like, what are your thoughts on just maybe not just for us, but for like your typical couple, like, what are your thoughts on like, expressing some kind of like this may or some negative feeling through like a text or through an email or through like something that is and has a little bit more space built into it? Do you think that that is a good idea or bad?

Rosanna 39:46
That’s interesting you say that because you’re I mean, you hate when people text like, I’m texting back and forth with someone He’s like, you’re totally reading into that. That’s not what she meant. And you should if you want to talk to someone, you should call them. Yeah, not even call them. You should talk to them face to face. So it’s interesting that you bring that up. But I think if it’s hard for you to find the words, or it’s right, like, it’s too confrontational for you, I don’t know that I would send a text. But I mean, if it’s a spouse, like a little note, Hey, sorry, I was in a bad mood last night, I did get a little upset when this happened. So it’s like, at least it’s like, okay, I can acknowledge that this happened –

Jordan 40:20
You almost need like a template. And I can just print it out, fill in the blank lines with whatever I’m putting in the take home folder for the mom to read and to hear the printer going, like, oh, shoot, I can, I’m gonna get another note.

Rosanna 40:32
That like how like telegrams used to come through with like – . So I mean, but if that’s a tool that works, but –

Jordan 40:40
We almost have to agree, I’m like what would work. Because I don’t that then I don’t want someone to be insulted either. And say, like, –

Rosanna 40:45
Are you afraid to tell me because you think I’m gonna yell at you? Or, but it’s more about you. And I feel like we’re talking about yelling, like, people are gonna think I’m this dragon lady that’s just always yelling.

Jordan 40:56
No, I mean, it has nothing to do with you. And I think with other people, too, you know, just depending on the type of relationship, like it can be hard to bring up something in a way which you were, you know, hurt or offended or disappointed, because then I feel like I’m going to like, put those feelings on this other person, and then they’re going to be hurt and offended or disappointed. And that doesn’t seem very productive. So like, if I can just stomach this and move on maybe that would be better. And maybe in some cases, so it depends on what it is. But most of the time it needs to be articulated.

Rosanna 41:31
Right. The toothpate in the sink. Just clean it up. But I think honesty is probably the best policy. Yeah.

Jordan 41:39
All right. So

Rosanna 41:41
So your last one was what I had guessed, or what I had said for you. So the only unfinished unresolved thing here at about 43 minutes, okay, is a fault of mine that you see that you would like to call out publicly? Okay.

Jordan 41:57
Well, let me consult my list here. I only get one?

Rosanna 42:02
Number seventy-two says….

Jordan 42:05
I’m kidding. I did. Alright, so I know, you totally picked up this list. So I there’s one that I didn’t write down, that you actually came up a little bit earlier on. So we can talk about what I wrote down here later on. But I think this one will be more interesting too. It actually has to do with the subject of our conversation today. So I think you are, I’m just gonna put it out there.

Rosanna 42:28
I think, like, so worried right now,

Jordan 42:30
I think you’re very bad at taking feedback.

Rosanna 42:33
I am very bad at taking feedback.

Jordan 42:37
Because I know and so sometimes I don’t want to say anything because I like your, your first reaction can be like, almost like to like nip back. So if I say like hey, Rosanna, like, this is what I’m seeing. And then I know, like the like the, whatever I just said, it’s Yeah, it’s gonna be like reflected back to me. And it’ll be, you know, it’ll be like, you know, my fault or how it’s like, I’m equally guilty in some regard. And so I think we’ve talked about that, too, because it’s almost comical, like, I’m like, I knew you’re gonna say that, but actually listen to what I said. And –

Rosanna 43:10
And I knew that I was gonna do that. But like, that’s, but that’s like, my initial like, disposition where like, it’s like, I have so much, almost like shame. Yeah, like, whereas like, I, I don’t want to be told that I am not who I’m supposed to be. And so my natural inclination is to like play defense. And then reflect it back at you. So it’d be like, okay, you’re also not perfect.

Jordan 43:37
But I will say this to our I, maybe I should rephrase this, you’re not really bad at taking feedback. In the initial moment you are prone to respond that way. But I think, like over over time, maybe over the course of a few minutes, or a day or a week, then you, you do like, think about it. And then we have, I think a more productive conversation afterwards. About what you know, whatever it was. So I guess in that regard, like you’re really good at it, it’s maybe just if we could just skip that first step where we’re defensive.

Rosanna 44:13
You get the storm. And then after it comes the cool rain you you wish we could just skip to the cool rain that nourishes as opposed to the –

Jordan 44:21
Yeah, yeah, something like that. So, you know, I want to bring that up, too. Because I know we’ve talked about that. And I think that you’re I think you’re aware of it, and you’ve you’ve grown in that regard. And for me, like I’m not even, you know, like fazed by your response. Sometimes I’m like, Alright, I just, oh, well, we’ll get through this portion ot the response, and then I know the good stuff is coming.

Rosanna 44:44
Well, and I think it’s the same way with the I’m fine. It’s, I have to ask the question. I think it’s like a minimum of like, 37 times over the course of four days to move past the I’m fine to what the actual problem is, or was. And so like, it’s just several days of I’m fine before I get the answer. And knowing that about you, and what you know about me, like, helps us work through it. But maybe we could be a little more efficient by being a little more honest and a little bit more open in those regards and a little more vulnerable in the moment instead of after the moment.

Jordan 45:17
So we appreciate all of you listening to Rosanna and I have this this session, where we’re open with one another and open with you as well. And it is, I think, a productive, even, you know, quasi therapeutic exercise to be involved in with one another.

Rosanna 45:36
Yeah, and I think I really think the takeaway here, if there is, one is that we can’t be so afraid of admitting our mistakes and missteps, that we’re reluctant to change. Because even in our last episode, we talked about like in the world that we are in and the relationships here and we have to continue to move forward. And in order to do that, like there needs to be growth. And in order to grow, you have to be able to acknowledge what isn’t working to make it work. So I still cannot believe that we had this conversation, I still cannot believe that I am admitting like these faults publicly for people that we know and don’t know to be like, Oh, they really don’t have it all together. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows and puppies at their house.

Jordan 46:15
Well that’s one of the reasons I thought it would be good to do this episode too. So like, I don’t want people to get the wrong idea. And think like, Oh, they they have it all together because of this reason or that reason –

Rosanna 46:24
Or we know them and we know they don’t have it all together yet, thety’re pretending that they do.

Jordan 46:28
So I think that’s the case of like, let’s let’s let’s kind of engage in this with one another, but also show people that it’s okay to have this kind of conversation. So no one puts us on a pedestal not that they should, but that we all are kind of in the same boat of like just being human, and acknowledging that we all have ways that we can grow. One of the pieces of feedback too, is that I don’t think that we have to I think engaging in the self reflection is important. But I also think it’s helpful to ask for feedback, as well. So maybe there’s a spouse or relatives or colleagues, all of whom know you to a certain extent and can probably, if requested, like share, some maybe very enthusiastically, some of the the flaws or shortcomings you may have, and I think it should be part of our regular exercise to request that feedback so that we can always remain cognizant of where we want to try to double down and reinforce who we are.

Rosanna 47:24
Well, and maybe you don’t have to say it as what are Can you please list for me my faults and shortcomings maybe like, What are some areas I could work on to strengthen who I am? Something a little more positive.

Jordan 47:36
Right? Yeah. How are you choose to phrase it.

Rosanna 47:37
Areas of improvement. Well, thank you for joining us for this episode. I hope it was helpful for you for your relationships and even for how you see yourself moving forward as we continue to grow in the year 2020, the one that is unprecedent unprecedented like any other.

Jordan 47:55
Absolutely. Thanks for joining us today, everybody. Bye.

 

Jordan 0:00
Hello, and welcome to season two, Episode Five of the relentless pursuit podcast. This episode is titled self education. So today, we’re talking all about self education. And this is different than our conversation regarding back to school and education that we did at the end of season one, because this isn’t focusing on our kids learning, or going back to school or anything like that. But it’s really focused on like our own as adults, like personal

education, kids, let’s talk about

Rosanna 0:44
education and knowledge. And kind of the pursuit of that as we want to change and grow and better ourselves into the best versions of ourselves. So believe it or not, in 2015, so that’s five years ago, self education was $107. billion industry. And by 2025, they’re predicting that it will explode to become a $325 billion industry. Alright,

Jordan 1:09
so in just 10 years, the self education industry will triple

Unknown Speaker 1:15
triple.

Rosanna 1:16
And this is kind of fueled by actually, there’s a whole article that like LinkedIn bought kind of like this, like self education domain as a way to like better people bettering themselves,

Jordan 1:29
like connecting perfect, like, professional in the sense,

Rosanna 1:32
correct. So like never before people are investing in their own knowledge and in their own growth like never before. And like the big question is, well, why is that? And Forbes answers this question in an article that they recently wrote. It was published on August 21 2020. And it says, it’s because we currently live in a world that is rapidly changing on a near daily basis right in front of our eyes, forcing us to adapt and pivot in ways that we haven’t had to before. The key to surviving and thriving in this time of extreme change, uncertainty and disruption is being able to be flexible and proactive.

Jordan 2:07
And don’t think I’ve thought about it that way before. But I think that’s accurate, like I’ve thought of, and about what we’ll talk about what we’ll be about kind of just like growing and bettering yourself, you know, like for specific reasons, but we really do think about how quickly the the ground underneath us is shifting, you know, a lot of jobs that exist now didn’t exist a decade ago or more, and that know how much more will that change in another decade. So it’s like if we want to keep up in I was thinking professionally, but in a number of ways, then being able to continue to learn is essential.

Rosanna 2:42
Yeah, and if you think about these last six, seven months of COVID, how many businesses have had to pivot in unprecedented ways in order to keep their doors open, and the ones that haven’t because of lack of skills in terms of maybe social media or marketing or like just diversifying what they’re able to do have had to close their doors, right? So it’s become even increasingly more important. Okay, so let’s define self education. Self education is an education without the guidance of masters. So a certified teacher or like professor or something of that sort, or institutions like an accredited university or college or program, and autodidact are individuals who choose the subjects heard fancy word, who choose the subjects, they will study the materials they will learn from, as well as their own studying rhythm and timeline.

Jordan 3:34
Okay, so this is distinguished from like, like a school has a set curriculum, a set teacher, or like an institution will have like multiple courses, then you get your diploma at the end. So we’re distinguishing from that this is really self paced, self guided, everything’s self driven,

Rosanna 3:52
you know, based on something that you want to learn about, for the sake of learning, or ultimately for the sake of doing and trying and learning through it. Thanks. So what do you think enough to talk about with this topic?

Jordan 4:04
Well, I really like this, because this is, this is something that we’ve believed just as educators, you know, for a long time, and we’ve tried to apply ourselves. But, you know, in schools, there’s that phrase, lifelong learner. And when we talk about and we hear, it’s like, from our kids schools, in like, all the way I would imagine through high school as well, like, we want our students to learn this content, but also learn how to learn and enjoy learning enough that they’re going to continue to do it in all kinds of different ways, even after it’s, you know, required by state law, you know,

Rosanna 4:39
now, can I tell you something, and you might judge me, and maybe our listeners will, too. I used to think that that was kind of like a crack. Like, oh, we want you to be like a lifelong learner. And once you leave this institution, or, you know, walk out of these doors, you know, that you’re going to seek knowledge and it that never really clicked for me.

Jordan 4:59
I don’t think it will at the time, like when you’re young, because you’re so excited to be done with school and stop having people tell you what to do. And it does sound like one of those, like, you know, kind of like in the clouds little phrase is that you maybe you don’t even understand what it’s supposed to mean until you’re older.

Rosanna 5:17
One, I think I’ve mentioned this before, like, you know, like, going to college was like a means to an end at some point, like you go, so you get the degree and you get the job, and then you just work the job. And then the more that I’ve grown, the more I realized that that’s not it at all. That’s not what I want it to be for me. And so this seeking of this self education and learning different things that I didn’t even know I was interested in, and maybe I wasn’t at the time, but picking up like books, or listening to things or hopping onto a webinar to learn things has kind of really opened the doors in my eyes for just the rest of my life.

Jordan 5:48
How much is out there? So So let me ask you that first, like, What? What would you consider, like all of the ways that one could go about learning? And why would they want to do that?

Rosanna 6:02
Well, I think in the age we live in, there are so many ways you could go about learning. And sometimes, it’s kind of surprising what you can learn from now, you know, Netflix is what it is. There’s some junk on it. But there’s some good stuff. There’s some

Jordan 6:16
there’s a lot of like nonfiction. So there’s a lot of documentaries, things that can walk you through it, right,

Rosanna 6:19
which that never used to interest me, you you love documentaries, and you love learning about things. And I just used to like to be entertained. But I found that like when there’s documentaries and those types of things on Netflix, like that opens my eyes to a topic that I maybe didn’t think about. And then that kind of like spurs me on to like maybe read a book by, you know, something similar, and it’s never now it’s not I move away from fiction, and I’m looking at nonfiction and like exploring those topics, because I’m interested in them. And a lot of times, then there’s application in my life and even in my job and even in the things that I’m pursuing that I didn’t necessarily see a connection to before.

Jordan 6:58
Yeah, yeah, I think there’s two reasons to learn like one and I just think about like this documentary is come to mind, because one that I enjoyed not too long ago was about rock climbers. It’s I have no interest in rock climbing myself. But it was entertaining at the time. And I feel like the the end result of that is that I’m now slightly more knowledgeable about the, you know, the, what they presented in that documentary. And I’m definitely like, interested in kind of learning more about that. But really, that that’s a little bit more I would consider to be entertainment. It’s like learning because it is fun to explore something I didn’t really know anything about. And I think the other like far more applicable. One is what you were talking about, which is you you have some sort of objective for yourself, and some some sort of application that you would like to make. And the more that you can educate yourself on that given topic, then the more likely you are to be successful in that endeavor that you are planning. That’s your next step. Yeah, I mean, I

Rosanna 7:58
was went to college to be a high school English teacher. And so I obtained that degree I did my student teaching, I taught for a while. And then at the time when we had our first son for us, it made more sense for me to be home with him. And so I was home with him. But even after being home with him, I still worked to remember this for a few years for like three years for a nonprofit. And while I was teaching high school, I ended up being the yearbook advisor there and I had no graphic experience, I had an English degree. So I taught like the journalistic side, I paired with technology teacher who taught the aspects of learning Photoshop, and InDesign and layout. And I had to learn that and then apply it on the computer. So the first year I taught that, like it was like a trial by fire and learn by doing like, I had no idea that kids knew more than I did, but I learned from them. And so that was like an interesting scenario that I never thought in my teaching career would be essential or important to the rest of my life. So then I start working for this nonprofit, and they want me to do their newsletter. And lo and behold, I need to use Photoshop and InDesign to lay out their newsletter for them. In addition to write an article, these

Jordan 9:05
skills that you just developed,

Rosanna 9:06
does react over the last five years, but then I took into that. And then from there, my sister in law was at the time selling stuff on Etsy, she like could sew and make and craft and started selling and was pretty successful. said, you know, you do a lot with graphics. Have you ever, you know, thought about jumping into the Etsy marketplace and selling some of your designs? And I said, I don’t know anything about that. No.

Jordan 9:29
So then you learn a little bit about the online marketplace a little bit about accounting and customer service,

Rosanna 9:35
correct. And even social media with kind of, you know, showing people your brand and what you sell and the first version of my shop was not the last version of my shop, and then people saw what I was selling and designing and bringing it together. And that’s how somebody asked me to like design and create an event for their kid. And then that was the start of my event business. So there were along the way. These were Things I never thought I would do. I never had an interest in. But then my skills had shifted, and then gradually became something else. And now I’m on like this next version of like, the skills I’ve obtained.

Jordan 10:11
Yeah.

Rosanna 10:12
And so learn by doing was a big thing. But then it was also like researching, okay, online marketplace and accounting and taxes, and all of these things that I didn’t want to learn about, but was thrust into and then got excited about.

Jordan 10:26
Yeah. And what’s interesting to me about that is like, we think of like our institutional education, and we get a degree in recertified to do something. But there’s kind of this additional component that goes into that, right? There’s this idea that who we are at the end of that formal education is not who is we don’t, we don’t want to get stuck at that degree of learning. And you kind of like this idea for this growth mindset, you’re going to continue to learn and to grow, maybe not in that formalized way. So I think some people may think that, like education only consists of what you get from a school and the outcome is always a degree, and then maybe a position that’s associated with that. Whereas what you’re saying is the like, as long as you understand that you can always be learning and always be growing from all the elements that are out there from the people that you know, to yours, like social networks, to your like, blogs, and videos and tutorials. And like, there’s so many different elements that are out there that as long as you’re engaging with those, you’re going to develop those new skills and open your own pathways.

Rosanna 11:36
Yeah, but part of it is that that was scary to me. And so I think that’s what sometimes we let hold us back in a variety of areas is like, well, I don’t know enough about this. So I have to a admit that I don’t know. Yeah, be then I have to, like, you know, you sign up for a program you go. And then they tell you what you need to do. But like this is completely self driven. And it’s much harder to do that for yourself and to push yourself and to establish those timelines and choose your materials, and the rhythm and maybe like what you what you want your end game to be that we let that stop us from starting. Yeah. And so when your sister had mentioned something about Etsy, I told her No, for like a year, because I was so afraid, like, that’s out of my comfort zone, it’s out of my wheelhouse. I can’t do that. And though I learned the most through even my interaction with somebody else who was already doing it. And then I think of to somebody who wanted to start going into events, it was a couple years ago, she’s like, you know, we have someone in common. She told me you do this? Can we sit down and have coffee? And I remember telling you, like, someone wants to have coffee with me to ask me about how I started my business? Actually, no. And I thought I said, there’s so many people who know so much more than me. And you said, if anybody ever wants to meet with you to talk about what you know, you should use your knowledge as a gift to give them to get started. And so I think about that now, when I ask other people, as people who are already doing it are already masters, we always think that it has to be someone with like a degree or they’re a professor of something, right, they’ve achieved something but people who are already doing it can be great allies and resources for us to get started,

Jordan 13:13
right. And there’s that that real world experience that practicality as well as well. And that’s how I feel too. Like there’s, there’s a lot of like new terrain that’s being explored, thanks to emerging technology. But there’s also like a lot of people who are beginning to explore that. And even if they’re just a step or two ahead of us, then that’s someone that we can learn from. And I think about even simple things like how many household chores, or like handyman kinds of things have I done, or at least attempted, thanks to like YouTube clips, God

Rosanna 13:46
bless YouTube, we get a lot done around here, because YouTube don’t know how to do it. Let’s watch that video and check

Jordan 13:51
it out clip and you have, you know, just some guy in his own basement, like fiddling with stuff. And he’s like, here’s how you do it. And you know, we can learn from that as well. And so there’s some, like, I think formal areas where we’ve expressed interest in and have, you know, bought books, or listened to podcasts, or networked with people, or like looked at YouTube videos, or again, done all those attended seminars, and just tried to kind of it’s almost like this, this self certification this this degree, and it’s really great having the internal motivation to continue to dive into the same topic of the things I really do. Maybe just one time, if it’s like, something’s broken, I need to fix it. And I’ll try to like learn how to do that myself before calling in like an expert and having to pay them.

Rosanna 14:39
Sometimes it would help to just call the next some well and have paid them. Yes, but but it’s learning and growing is good. It’s all about trying to you know, because the first Yes, and the first time might be a failure, but maybe the next time will be a success.

Jordan 14:53
Maybe or the next time you just call the first.

Rosanna 14:57
See either way

Jordan 14:58
you learn something I think we’re both thanks About the same thing because no one of our ceilings may or may not have water stains, water damage on it. So it’s okay, live

Rosanna 15:08
and learn, live and learn case arrastra

Jordan 15:10
Yeah, but I think that the the important thing to think about with knowledge is like, if we think of it as this fixed thing, like I went to school, I earned my degree. And now all of my time is spent either like applying just that information to my career, or like otherwise entertaining myself. Without this idea of continuous growth, then I think I would compare it to like inflation, where if you’re, if your money is in the bank, and it just sits there year after year after year becomes less valuable because of inflation. And I think knowledge is kind of the same way where the world is moving on. So even at one point, if you had to kind of mastered all of that, given content, if you don’t continue to make the investment in your learning, then the world is going to move on and what you know, will become less and less valuable.

Rosanna 15:56
When a lot of industries, that’s why they kind of, say force you but see continuing education, credits and things that, okay, you might be licensed in this area, but you have continuing education opportunities to get better. I mean, I know that they even do that in the hair industry, where you have to like recertify, every so many years, and you have to have so many hours of practice and training in new areas, because they want to continue to see you learn and grow and develop the profession and the industry, right and not just be stagnant. And oh, I can do this. One thing.

Jordan 16:28
I think that’s assumed in some industry, like for like doctors, for example, like there’s always new, like medical procedures and studies that are coming out. And it’s, it’s really essential that, you know, if say you became a doctor 30 years ago, that you’re not applying the same principles from then that I because they’re not as applicable today. And so I think it’s assumed in the medical profession, that you are going to be like continuing to like attending conferences, and conducting research and exposing yourself to the ever developing world that’s there.

Rosanna 16:59
But I think the same would be true as a mechanic, you look at cars now, and where they’re going, and Tesla and all of that, like a mechanic who learned something 40 years ago is not gonna be able to service the kind of car that is moving forward. Exactly. And so I think we’re gonna continue to see that no matter what, like, what,

Jordan 17:15
what is not going to change moving forward, then that’s my point. So that I think everything changes, like even in we think about, like families are, you know, consistent, but even that’s different, because think about all the decisions we have to make as parents now that our parents didn’t have to make or grandparents didn’t have to make. So I think in terms of like, one of our conversations was about like, screentime in the households, that’s a completely new domain, that it takes some education of like, what are these things? What are the what, what is the current research? What are the the decisions, the best decisions that could be made? And so I really think in every domain of our life, it’s important to continue to expose ourselves to the things that are out there and learn. Otherwise, we’re just, I think, forced to repeat something that we learned a long time ago, and we will no longer be the best or even applicable. Yeah.

Rosanna 18:05
I mean, I, one of the questions that just comes to mind is like, what’s at stake? If we are not internally driven to educate ourselves with the goal of moving forward? I mean, I feel like the answer is just everything, right? Like, we will really be left behind,

Jordan 18:25
right? And ignorance can be bliss, same time, in the sense that maybe if you, I don’t know, like, do you think it’s fair to say like, if you don’t know what you’re missing, and you you feel like you have everything you need, then we’re okay. Or does it eventually come back to haunt you, maybe not tomorrow, but in a decade or 20 years from now that everything is so different, and you fail to keep up along the way, and then the jump that you need to make becomes that much more excessive, and

Rosanna 18:52
then it becomes a struggle. And I think that’s true, because that ignorance is bliss, I feel a little bit like I’m living in that right now. Just because we’re so focused on making sure everything is happening for our kids with like school at home, and then we decided that it would be a great idea to get a puppy and I’ve had events every other weekend, and like, things have been very chaotic, so chaotic, that I’ve felt very overwhelmed lately, like, I don’t even like see the people that I know and I love because like it’s just kind of feel like I’m drowning a little bit trying to get to the top and I think that we all have seasons and times where like that’s, that’s the reality. And so like people are like, oh, have you seen the news? You know what’s going on? No. And so I will claim right now ignorance is bliss because like I don’t need one more thing to worry about that like is out of my control that I’m going to be like drowning and so like I’ve kind of like actually just like shut out the outside worlds, right? But I know that that’s very temporary. And I know that like I am going to have to like pick up my head

Jordan 19:47
and look around which can be dangerous. Yeah,

Rosanna 19:49
right. The election is coming up like what do I need to like educate myself on what do I need to start like, you know, sifting through to make sure that I’m making good decisions moving forward. So like, I think Ignorance is bliss is good for short term, if you need to block something out to focus on what’s in front of you, but long term, I mean, it, the world will leave you behind.

Jordan 20:09
Yeah. And since you bring up, like the election and politics, I think that that’s, that’s one area, obviously one of many areas that we we really have to kind of dedicate ourselves to think just being good students of. And there’s this temptation to kind of, I think, like, let let people intrude upon our own thinking and learning process. And I’m thinking specifically through social media, where there are algorithms that are designed to kind of feed us ever more increasingly extreme kinds of perspectives. And so if you ever feel like, like other people are just like out of their minds, or crazy or right, when it comes to certain issues, and we like that we are not as able to even understand or come to any sort of middle ground. I think that that’s because even though under the guise of self education, we’re not being good students. And so for me, like, I mean, one of the things that I always try to consistently take a look at is, if I know that there’s something that I’m learning about that has more than one side, I try to expose myself to that other side. So I’m always very skeptical about what someone is trying to tell me. And I’m like, Well, what would someone who disagrees with this person say? And I think, ultimately, like self education, comes down to like, what do what do I want to get out of it? Not What does someone else want to get out of me. And so the reason why when you brought up politics i wanted to bring up that is because like it Next, someone else does want something out of us, they want our vote, they want our opinion or activism. And, and I think we should be doing those things, but in a way that we truly have have thought through and come to terms with, it’s very easy to be in an echo chamber, where everything that you’re exposed to on social media, or every like book you buy, or every person you talk to, is just telling you that you’re right. And that can be very dangerous. Because the chances are that there’s more to learn that we have, whether intentionally or not, we’ve blocked it out. And so that’s, that’s I think, the double edged sword, when it comes to self education is let’s make sure that we are being good students and exposing yourself to a range of information on any given topic, rather than just find something that sounds the most appropriate to us. And agreeing with it without critically thinking about it.

Rosanna 22:42
Well, and I think that’s the reason we chose that book for our book club to try exposing us to a different side, exposing us to someone who is not like us, that does not come from the same background, in order for us to understand better who we are, who we want to be, and how we can make things better. Exactly.

Jordan 23:00
And so I think even a non political topics get to look at the same thing, like we’ve a lot of what we’re talking about as applied to like real estate as well. And we’ve spent a lot of time like, you know, just reading books and attending conferences and doing different things just to explore that. But you always got to think like there’s it’s a wide world. So what is this one person saying? And that works for them. But what are some other things that maybe they didn’t include, that someone else could to help me come to the best understanding of what I feel

Rosanna 23:29
is appropriate, right, a more well rounded understanding of the topic from a variety of angles, a variety of contexts, and from a variety of experiences. Because I think sometimes you’re right, we get we get trapped, like pigeonhole, like, Oh, this is the way you have

Jordan 23:41
to do it and become so narrow, such a narrow lane of thinking that we forget about everything else.

Rosanna 23:47
And what works for you does not work for me, because you and I learn very differently. So even the way in which we choose to learn about topics, or the topics that we choose are very different. And so if I let you dictate that to me, like I’m not going to get the most out of it. Yeah.

Jordan 24:02
So that’s, I think that’s one of the important things, as we talked about, like self education is like what is what is the end goal with all of this, and we talked about being able to apply it towards a domain in our life that we feel is valuable. And I think also just not just like affirming our thoughts or opinions, but like, truly, like the like a more formal education may like leading ourselves to a wider world than we could have experienced or determined on our own.

Rosanna 24:32
Do you know when I’ve learned the most, when I’ve been the most uncomfortable, and when I’ve not known? That’s when I’ve learned the most

Jordan 24:39
you’ve learned the most when you’ve not known?

Rosanna 24:42
Well, you know, like, Okay, so, okay, you go through so let’s talk about college. Okay, I went to college I student taught right, like, you at least feel like you know something, right? Like you’ve come away with something and you think okay, like I’m ready for this. Yeah. But like we started this podcast. Okay, so I mean, we did a little research on like, okay, we need microphones we need, right? Like, we need show notes. You know, there were like these things that like in our mind, we put on our list of things that we had to do. Had we ever taken a class about a podcast? No. Had we ever recorded a podcast? No, you’ve listened to tons of podcasts. I think before we started the podcast, I’d listened to a total of five podcasts, like not even five, like five episodes, yeah, five episodes, not five seasons of 10. Yeah, no, five episodes of podcast just because it didn’t really fit with my life in terms of when or how I could listen, and not because I couldn’t get things out of it. But I knew very little about a podcast. And you, you know, encouraged me and said, like, we this is something that we can do, we can get a lot out of it, you know, we had our intentions. And that’s what we wanted

Jordan 25:46
to get out of it. But six months from the moment that we said, we want to do it to the time that we actually published our first episode,

Rosanna 25:54
right? So, but we gave ourselves that like, timeline, and then we kind of divided up the tasks and you kind of okay, what do we need to figure out? What do we need to learn, you know, trial and error, but like, I’ve seen so much growth in both me as a learner, as a podcaster. In us as a couple, like trying to do this, when we knew very little about the topic. So we didn’t spend like three years studying it or interviewing people like sometimes we let that hold us back. Because we feel like we don’t know enough, right?

Jordan 26:25
I haven’t I haven’t mastered so well, you never really will until you do it. So what what percent, do you think you need to know something? Before you start?

Rosanna 26:36
Is there really like a percent? Well,

Jordan 26:38
I like in my mind, it would be 10. Like you need to know, like,

Rosanna 26:41
there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, you only need to know 10%,

Jordan 26:44
right. And then the other 90%, you have to just like you, you only need to know enough to get started. If you think you need to know 100%, you never will get started with whatever that is, or take that next step. So if you have enough to get started, maybe eat just enough to be a little foolish about it, then you can get involved in it make the commitment and the other 90% will follow. But it really that 90% doesn’t happen unless you take that first step. So it requires experience. It requires discomfort it requires you almost like putting yourself in a position where shoot. Now I have to figure this out. Because I’ve already committed to it in some way.

Rosanna 27:22
Well, there’s like a thing that’s like the first time you do anything is like going to be the worst, the worst of anything you’ve ever done. Mm hmm. And so you I remember you said that before we recorded the podcast, you’re like, Can you imagine like when we’re seven seasons in 10 years from now?

Jordan 27:35
listener? Yeah, you know,

Rosanna 27:39
writing our book, yeah, we’re gonna look back and laugh at our first episode. And that actually scared me a little bit because it made me think, Oh my gosh, like, we’re gonna be embarrassed of this, like, so like, when people were listening to the first episode, I was thinking, I was like, so nervous, cuz they’re gonna be like, you guys are awful. Like, what? What are you doing? And it was interesting, because, you know, we got really great feedback. We have a lot of great family and friends who are listening and other followers that we’ve picked up. And people still comment about that first episode. So like, even knowing that, that won’t be the best of anything that we create. But that was like the first step after we’ve learned and from there, we continue to grow, and not letting

Jordan 28:16
us try after that, too. Yeah. So I mean, 111 thought that I have kind of fallen off this is that like, do you think that there is in in the lifelong learner ness that we’re talking about? And even within the domain of self education? Is there a place for, or an advantage to having like any sort of institutionalized education, so let’s say like, you’re required to go to school through high school. And many people after that choose to go to college or to a trade school? And then they start their career? Is there any advantage in like, continuing to, like engage in institutionalized education?

Rosanna 28:57
I think there is, I think, you know, even from the time our kids start school, you learn how to learn through school, you learn how to read, right? You learn how to look at text for information, you learn how to dissect attacks, look at perspective, like, there are things that you learn through those stages of your education that prepare you to be able to learn independently. So yeah, not just reading, not just math, not just, you know, basic knowledge, but like, learning how to learn. That’s, that’s a skill that is taught and needs to learn, you know, needs to be taught, and something that we need to learn.

Jordan 29:33
Yeah. I also think about, like the idea that it’s like getting a personal trainer for our workouts, like when someone tells you what to do, then you you can just do it and enjoy the results of it. And I almost think maybe like a teacher can be like that to where even as an adult, like you sign up for a call, you’ve paid money for this class. And now you’ve kind of committed to just like getting your money’s worth out of it in a sense. And so there’s like the power of the teacher. That person who is likely a couple steps ahead of you and has something to offer the power of classmates with the camaraderie, and also the accountability that comes with that. And I always thought that there was power in a due date. I mean, how many things do like we all decide we’re going to do this, and we don’t have anyone holding us to it. And so that date that we wanted done by just passes by, when we’re in a class, like the due date is the due date, and you better get your work done. And so it kind of forces you to engage in learning along a specific timeline. And I think there’s an advantage to a few of those elements of a formal education that I would include has, like if you’re opting into it, and I’d say, that’s part of what self education could entail.

Rosanna 30:49
Well, sure. And even in that, like in education, you have like feedback from like, teachers, and like, you learn how to gain feedback, you like to look at it critically, and how to, like improve going forward. So I mean, there’s a lot of different things that aren’t just like the due date of turning something in or producing something, but even some of the monotonous skills to like get you there as well how to interact with people how to work cooperative, Co Op, cooperative, collaboratively, there we go. with people, there’s just there’s a lot there.

Jordan 31:17
Mm hmm. So and that, that that’s one of the advantages to that. So I think there’s kind of like the one off, like, I could listen to certain podcast episodes, or watch certain videos, or I could buy like a set of books or sign up for a master class. And you get to engage with learning that way. And that I think, institutionalized education can fall under that as well, where there’s something that now I’m interested in, maybe it’s professionally, maybe it’s personally, but I want to find a way to allow someone or a system to kind of bring me up further along. But there

Rosanna 31:53
are plenty of people who are now creating courses. I mean, Tony Robbins has been doing it for years, there’s, there’s a bunch of people, I went to like a seminar this fall, and Rachel Hollis was there like, these are people now who have like, mastered kind of like the art of self development and improving and are creating courses for people like to take to like move themselves forward. And like whatever their business or their strategy, or their industry is in. And I think, you know, a lot of people are buying into that, because they’ve seen it work for other people. And it’s not, you know, some people can afford a four year degree or a graduate degree or something, but they’re looking for people who have, you know, mastered whatever their content is, and then have taught other people to do the same thing through their own, like learning and investigation. There’s

Jordan 32:41
a course for anything right now. What would you say to the person who says like this, this all sounds really great. I totally agree, I don’t have time.

Rosanna 32:51
We all have time, the book, right, we all have 24 hours in a day. And so it all has to really like go back to deciding to get off the sidelines and get in the arena, which we talked about in season one. And then finding the time by deciding what’s important and what’s not. And cutting out some of those unimportant things to find an hour to read or 20 minutes to listen to a podcast or taking a day off work to attend a seminar like there are things that we need to shift around in our lives to make it work,

Jordan 33:20
right. And I think if something is important enough, then you find a way to give it the space that it needs. So and that’s challenging, because there’s I think, many an evening where maybe like earlier in the evening, I’m like, I feel fantastic. I can’t wait to read this or explore this topic. And then excuse me, after the kids go to bed, and then I feel like I am just too too tired. Or even if I open that book to read it, there’s no way that I actually get more than a page or two into it.

Rosanna 33:57
I think that’s where accountability comes into play. Because we can even say to ourselves, like oh, I this is what I’m interested in, this is what I want to do. But if you don’t have someone holding you accountable, you’re less likely to do it. So I see this, like at the gym, right? Like having a trainer or someone there who’s like pushing you some kind of accountability. We put out there that we were launching a podcast on June 24 2020. So once we put that out there on social media and Jordan who like at the time, like never posted on social media, like put it out there, I put it out there. Then our friends and family started sharing it, it was like

Jordan 34:33
then you can tap like better now we have

Rosanna 34:35
to do this. Otherwise, we look foolish, and there’s nothing worse than you know, feeling foolish or like having people like call you and be like Oh, I thought you were

Jordan 34:43
gonna do this. How come you didn’t do it? I’ve done that before to remember I think I told you I’m gonna run a marathon this year. And you’re like, Okay, and you’re supportive of it, but that like two months later, I’m like, Yeah, actually, I don’t feel like there’s maybe too much to learn. But I think that for me and they’re

Rosanna 34:59
informal Education, you see a lot of accountability. So in self education, it is self driven. And so that’s probably the harder part is if you maybe don’t express or have people to hold you kind of Hey, how’s that going? Like, you know, you’re studying this? Are you getting any closer to building your, you know, rebuilding your old Mustang or like, whatever it is to, like, help you like, yeah, yeah, I said it was important. I’m gonna do it, and I’m gonna do it. Yeah,

Jordan 35:23
I’m glad you brought up the Mustang. I don’t want the conversation to end without that little pipe dream that I have. So I am, as you know, like, I don’t know anything about cars. And I’m actually rather bad at anything requiring, you know, like tools and mechanics in general.

Rosanna 35:42
I mean, you know how to change the windshield wipers and change the right internal filter, right? So yeah, how much how much more is there.

Jordan 35:51
But that is one thing I feel like is in my grass one day that says not for now. But like one day do feel like there’s enough information out there that if I could, yeah, buy this old Mustang and fix it up. And that would be more entertainment, more hobby, and kind of more self growth is nothing, you know, it doesn’t involve anybody else really. But that that is one thing that I kind of hit my sights on. But I think there’s other things too related to family and to finances and to careers. And it’s really no limit to our own growth, except the the time and motivation we can put towards it. So I think that’s kind of the note that that I want to end on is just to kind of this note of inspiration. That’s, you know, if it is important, then we can make space for it. And we can pursue that if we choose. But I think that we we also have to, in a sense, because we also run the risk of standing still, and having the world move past us without realizing.

Rosanna 36:44
Yeah. So you ready to wrap this up to wrap it up? All right. So I think we have just a takeaway. And I think it’s it’s a two part takeaway. And I think it starts with formal education. So formal education gives us the tools to become lifelong learners, because it teaches us how to learn. But continued learning gives us the tools to become lifelong doers. It gets us up off the sideline, in the arena, doing what we say we’re going to do. Mm hmm. And I think that’s really important. And so,

Jordan 37:13
so the the question is like, the more we learn, the more we’re empowered to do to do. And the more we do, I also think the more we learn through that action.

Rosanna 37:21
Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s what is the phrase about teaching and mastering? How does it go?

Jordan 37:27
teachers teach because they can’t do what’s the face? Is that those who can’t do teach and dance yet? Yeah,

Rosanna 37:34
not that one. Yeah, to, to be able to do something as mastery of it is mastery of the knowledge that you’ve learned as Darth Vader like, now

Jordan 37:43
the apprentice has become the master.

Rosanna 37:46
Yeah, like that, like that one. So really, the big question is like, what do you want to learn more about? So that you can do something like what is it that you want to do? Like what’s holding you from doing something, maybe it’s that you don’t know enough about it, or you don’t know where to start? You don’t know where to begin? And so whether it’s running the marathon, like you have to educate yourself to run a marathon, you’re not just going to like run like there’s the physical component. But there’s there steps before that. So you know, what book, can you pick up? What podcast? Can you listen to? What ecourse? Could you sign up for? What seminar or webinar? Can you attend? Who can you talk to? Like, maybe there’s an area of interest and you know, someone who has a contact? They’re like, what about setting up a coffee date or lunch and picking their brain or talking to them about their experience? So you know, just thinking about if we want to be and do bigger and better things, like, what do we need to learn in advance to get us there?

Jordan 38:35
Right. So there’s a lot of opportunity out there to do it. And a lot of I think, I’m feeling like just the the excitement and the the internal motivation to want to pursue those things.

Rosanna 38:48
Yeah. And we live in a world where like, the world is our oyster, and there’s so much knowledge at our fingertips. So all we have to do is figure it out, figure out what we want to

Jordan 38:56
go. Yeah. That’s great. And well, thanks for listening, everybody. And we hope you enjoyed today’s conversation, and we’ll look forward to having you join us next time. Hi. Thanks so much for listening to today’s show. We hope you will use this conversation as a starting point for your own. We hope you’re encouraged to think and act more intentionally.

Rosanna 39:19
If you want to learn more, you can visit our website, the relentless pursuit podcast comm where you can find notes on today’s show, plus additional blog posts, and you can subscribe to our free members list.

Jordan 39:31
Please subscribe, leave a review and share with your friends.

Rosanna 39:34
Facebook and Instagram are two great places to connect with us for daily doses of our quotable quotes behind the scenes and real time photos,

Jordan 39:42
videos and challenges. Until next time, let us know how you are taking life off autopilot

Rosanna 39:48
and relentlessly pursuing what matters

 

Rosanna 0:14
Hello, and welcome to season two, Episode Four of the relentless pursuit podcast. This is our book club episode,

Jordan 0:20
very first book club episode. Very excited.

Rosanna 0:23
Yeah, back in July, when we were kind of mapping out this second set of 12 episodes, you had the idea of reading the same book and discussing it and kind of sharing just our thoughts and our perspectives. And we took some time to maybe think of something that was a little bit more meaningful and a little bit more appropriate for the climate and what’s really been going on in the world besides COVID, these last seven months.

Jordan 0:49
Yeah. And I am really excited about talking about this, we’ve read how to be an anti racist by ibram x Kendi. And I think, you know, when we were first, like sorting through some options, this kind of rose to the top for us, because we’re both very intentional with how we think and how we engage with the world. And part of that intentionality is, I would say, like exposing ourselves to ideas and to people and to perspectives that we wouldn’t normally run across in maybe just a typical day, inside of the unhappy bubble that we live in. So I was excited to get into this with you. And you and I don’t always read the same books.

Rosanna 1:30
No, we have very different interests and tastes, from fiction to nonfiction. I think it’s gotta be at least like 15 years since we’ve read the same book. Okay.

Jordan 1:41
So that’s a while. So this is a great excuse to again, come together over this and see if we wouldn’t had to, to reveal to us.

Rosanna 1:49
Okay, yeah, we didn’t choose something from Oprah’s book club or Reese’s book club, you know, a lot of hype on untamed and other books that, you know, people are reading. But this one is a little bit more directed at engaging in our current worlds in the current climate of what’s been going on.

Jordan 2:08
And I think that’s what makes I mean, I’ll be honest, I’m a little bit nervous about even just having an episode that talks about race and racism. I feel like it’s, it’s a topic that easily ignites our passions, you know, for better or worse, and you kind of go out on a limb by putting your perspectives out there. And I think our tendency is to, I wouldn’t say recoil, but it but it’s to kind of keep our thoughts to ourselves, in a sense, and still be the best people that we can be. But I think it’s important to have this dialogue for for a few reasons. One is that I think it’s just important for you and I to talk about, because we, we believe that we are good and intentional people who have the power to enact, you know, some wellness into the world. And I think we have to talk about race at some point. And, and we do. So this is one of many intentional conversations we’ve had about the topic. But I also am nervous, but it kind of excited about doing it on our podcast, because I hope that this shows other people who are listening that these are the types of conversations that can be difficult, but we encourage people to be having, especially with the ones that they love, so that they can explore any challenging topic in a way that is safe, and a way that is meaningful, and hopefully increases our understanding and our ability to kind of be the the people who we want to be in society.

Rosanna 3:45
Well, one of the things that I really like about you, I like a lot of things about you, but you will no matter what the topic is, if you’re trying to figure it out, or you’re trying to figure out where you stand or what you believe you will read literature on both sides of a topic to really understand people’s perspectives, and where they’re coming from, or like what Where are the gaps? Where the holes like? What are the questions you have, and you seek that out. And you let those kind of help you determine kind of like where you want to be. So that’s one of the ways in which I look up to you is that like, you’re always kind of like searching for the answer, or always trying to get yourself closer to the answer. And so you’ll read things that are maybe even on the side that you’re maybe on and you’ll read, you know, the opposition just to get a better, better balanced understanding of whatever the topic is. And I think engaging in this novel, in this book in this way is really important because this isn’t something I probably would have read or picked up. Mostly because it’s I don’t want to say that it’s scary, but it’s just, you know, put it up I am. I am a white upper middle class woman who is educated and lives in a very safe and secure little bubble and Like, sometimes it’s easier to not deal with it by not engaging with it and not even deciding where I stand on it. Right? So this is kind of like forced me to just, you know, open up my eyes a little bit, kind of whet my palate and determine like, Am I going to move closer to this? Am I going to engage with it? Or am I going to just sit quietly and pretend that it’s not out there?

Jordan 5:20
Yeah. All right. So let’s talk about the book and and everyone listening, we want you to understand, like, there’s, there’s a lot to this topic. And so we’re consider our conversation and some of the ideas that are in the book. And I think it’s easy to, you know, cast, people who don’t share exactly the same opinion as racist or as you’re judgmental, or as you know, insert the pejorative

Rosanna 5:49
liberal conservative, right. Atheists, Christian, yeah, rising. And so

Jordan 5:54
yeah, and so we’re gonna share our honest responses to being exposed to a new idea. And so I hope that’s really the takeaway is not Oh, this is where Jordan and Rosina stand on things. This is where they expected me to stand on things so much as we encourage everyone to adopt a similar approach of not just kind of saying, shoot from the hip, here’s my immediate response. And I’m going to stick to it no matter what, mentality so much as you know, there’s a lot of ideas and perspectives out there, when it try to expose myself to as many of them as I can, and then absorb them, synthesize them and decide for myself, where I really stand and what good I can enact. Because of that.

Rosanna 6:38
Okay, so do we want to talk a little bit about the book? Yeah. Um, so this book is not this is not an easy read. This is not like a light read, like, it’s heavy in the fact that it’s a combination of ethics, history, law, science, and then his personal narrative is like, woven into that. So that’s kind of like, he talks about himself from the time he’s a child until he’s out of college until up

Jordan 7:04
until, like, present day.

Rosanna 7:05
Yeah. And so you get to see kind of his transformation, and his perceptions and understanding of who he is through the lens of, like, who he’s told he is and who society believes him to be, and then who he understands himself to be. But there is a lot of like history, you know, just history of like black culture, and that transformation through time and things that have happened. So there’s like a lot to unpack and digest as you read. But then, with the aim of trying to contribute to the formation of like, adjust and more equitable society. Yeah.

Jordan 7:43
And on top of that, too, I would call it a book of definitions. And like every chapter, the chapters are, it is one word titles, and it just focuses on, for example, like culture, gender, color, and, you know, so on, like, looking at race and race history and race relations through those lenses. But it every chapter begins with a definition. In fact, the book itself begins with a definition of what is anti racism. And I’ve heard the term before I’ve heard some of the other terms before, but this, this book is very preoccupied with trying to, like clearly spell out what a lot of these terms, whether they’re new, or whether they’re familiar, really, really mean and how we can use them to operate based on that understanding to try to explore race and understand that a little bit better. Okay,

Rosanna 8:39
so where do you want to go from here?

Jordan 8:40
Well, let’s talk about I say the the opening definition because he, he shares race, or the definition of what it means to be a racist and what it means to be an anti racist. So do you remember how the how he framed those?

Rosanna 8:58
Yes, but I think you could probably describe it better than I.

Jordan 9:02
I’ll try. Um, so at the very outset, he creates what I would call a relatively like, binary depiction of the two, essentially saying, like, either you are racist, or you are anti racist. And really, what it gets at is that there’s, there’s no one in the middle, and I think a lot of people might consider themselves or they might describe themselves to be not racist. So the way he depicts this as like, if you’re not racist, you are still complicit in the racist ideologies and systems and institutions that are existent. And so either you’re anti racist, which means someone who is proactively working against the elements of racism, or your racist. And so this, what it does is it really takes people who might consider themselves to be disengaged or you know, in the middle And can recast them as potentially as being racist. And it’s the way that he depicts this, I think is in, at first, like, largely agreeable, it’s like, Okay, I get it, like if I want to not be racist that I need to be proactive against the forces of racism that are existent. And but what I found is that, you know, there’s I think people who would call themselves not racist, are or like kind of in the middle are you know, they’re not activists, they’re they’re not necessarily like researching politics and participating in protests. I think that that is, you know, I would say, like maybe an oversimplification of a very complex issue. And it, if anything, it kind of puts more people on the defensive, or more potential allies in a sense on the defensive, to say like, Well, wait, I’m not I’m not racist, but I’m also not, you know, as necessarily engaged as I could be, or someone might want me to be. And it’s, it can create, I hope not, but like more of an atmosphere where it’s easier to call someone racist if they’re not as engaged as you would imagine them to be. So I didn’t

Rosanna 11:19
feel like that, because Okay, so in the books intro, he starts with saying that pretending to be colorblind, like, Oh, I’m colorblind, I don’t see color I accept everybody is actually a mask to hide racism, because that just dismisses and denies race altogether. And so I think his point is like that you can’t dismiss or deny race, like so to say, like, Oh, yeah, doesn’t matter what you know, nationality or skin color, you are, like I, you know, I accept everybody like, but the whole point is, we shouldn’t be like erasing people’s skin colour initially, like, we should be embracing who they are because of those things. And so I saw a little bit of that. But he says the heartbeat of racism is denial. So I was wondering if you agreed or disagreed with that statement? Because when I read like, so you’re either an anti racist, meaning actively standing against racism, or you’re a racist, I actually thought to myself, like, I probably won’t be one of those people that claims that they’re in the middle, like, I would never say that I hate someone based on the color of their skin. But simultaneously, I’m not doing anything to like, stop, actively stop or engage with the racism that’s going on. And then I thought, whoa, I need to pick a side. Yeah. And so I didn’t feel like that at all. I thought he was, I think, maybe his perspective is to motivate people who, like if you think you’re not racist, like so then what are you doing to ensure that racism doesn’t continue? And if you’re doing nothing? What does that say? Like you’re either hot or cold? like saying you’re in the middle?

Jordan 12:44
Yeah, right. You’re complicit in

Rosanna 12:46
allowing these things. And if you’re allowing those things to happen, then technically you’re racist, you’re passively a racist.

Jordan 12:51
See, but I would question that too, because i and this is where we get more into, like the the heart of what the chapters are getting at. Because I, I feel like there’s different levels of engagement. And one of those like, I would consider to be like the way we parent for example, like I would argue, I would contest that we parent in an anti racist way. Like we are proactively teaching our children the value of every human life that they come in contact with. I would even say like the the way that we we attempt to live out our life, like attempts to demonstrate that value. But that’s on a very individual basis, right. At the same time, we can retreat back into our household and, and deliver happy life without ever really engaging heavily with it. So I wonder he doesn’t talk about he doesn’t talk about family, and parenting a whole lot. So I just wondered To what extent does that qualify? Does it meet his threshold of anti racist environment,

Rosanna 13:50
and I didn’t read his bio enough to know if he has children.

Jordan 13:54
He has one like young daughter, okay, and a wife.

Rosanna 13:58
Okay. Well, and I think that’s, you know, the way that we choose to parent or the way that like, we actively look at what it means to be American even explain that to our kids, because they have friends who are different races and nationalities and we talk about like that they are American, they are born here, and they are American and what that means and it’s not based on the color of your skin that you’re American. And then we talk even further about like, what does it mean to be human, we talk about all the ways in which we are similar, although food and customs and expressions of identity are different like that. We talk with our kids about how similar everybody is down to the core and not everybody parents that way not all generations parents in that way either. Instead of getting raised to like divide and like determine difference with our kids like we’re looking more at commonality

Jordan 14:44
and i think that’s that’s a lot of what I think this book comes down to too, which I like is like he gets to the point where it’s like just like love the individuals for as beautifully different as they are. And what I really liked about this was that he expected to be more defensive As I read through this, but I wasn’t and gratefully so because this is not the kind of book that comes out and is like, just overtly like, you know, white supremacists, and you know, white power and privilege and this and that. But it’s more so like he, he internalizes a lot of these things. And a lot of this is like, almost like this coming of age story for himself, where he progressively starts in like third grade, I think, like recognizes some aspects of race, that he then like, learns and then improves his perspective. And then he has other experiences or other mentors in his life that helped them like progressively, I think, enlarge and improve his perspective. And I think that’s kind of what we adapt to where a lot of it comes down to not action so much as mindsets like how are we viewing the people in our lives? And to what extent, this is where he gets a little bit vaguer. But to what extent do the itis about policies a lot? Are the the policies and the institutions that give shape to our lives? To what extent are those improving or not improving the lives with equity across the spectrum?

Rosanna 16:11
Well, let’s go back to that. That was one of the questions I had is like, when does he first become aware of his racial identity? And it’s his parents taking him to like a school that they’re like registering for. So I don’t remember if it was like, public or private, I think it was private, right? And they’re like taking a tour. And the lady is like, leading him through the school, and they’re answering questions. And like, his big question, all of a sudden is like, are there? Where are the black key teachers? Yeah. And she’s like, well, we have one, he’s like, well, where are the rest of them? And it was kind of like this good question. Like, are there no more like, there’s

Jordan 16:42
there’s just the one, but even his parents that are like, they explained to the lady that like he’s been, he’s noticed his race very much at this early age. Yeah.

Rosanna 16:51
So I thought that was just a good question for us to and even thinking about our kids, like, when did you become aware of your racial identity? And like, Where did you learn about it from? Like, for white? Like, at what point? Do you realize that At what point do you know that? And at what point, does that start to make sense? And what point do you realize that other people are not the same as you?

Jordan 17:15
That’s one thing that I think is very, I think it’s very difficult for me to answer that question. Because I am white, I’ve been raised in a largely white community. And there are very few times in my life that I could point to, at a gathering of any kind and say, like I was in the minority. And I think that that’s the opposite for so many of other, so many other minorities, they kind of live in the white world are more aware of that distinction. Whereas I’d never really had to think about that, except in a few instances where that was what distinguishes me from others.

Rosanna 17:56
And I think I grew up in the same kind of, you know, white suburbia. And I remember that there were like three or four kids in the school that did not have the same color, same, like, skin color as everybody else. And it was just, I don’t know that I recognize it at the time. But I remember like being a little bit older, maybe fifth or sixth grade where other kids were starting to point out differences, where it was like, oh, they’re not like everybody else. Except they were because they’ve been growing up with us in preschool and have been doing all of the same things. But it was like, all of a sudden, it was like, Oh, yeah, they they’re different.

Jordan 18:29
Right? Whereas right, and that’s the beauty of kids. Like they just don’t even know that I don’t even care. Right.

Rosanna 18:35
Right. Right. And I mean, we’ve had that same instance happen with our kids to where it’s they, the community around us now is a little bit more diverse, not a lot more diverse, but a little bit more diverse. But like having that conversation be like, Oh, well, this person is Indian, or this person is Asian, and they’re like, oh, like that, it never dawned on them. Right. But even him as like a third grader was very much aware of like, who he was, and who he wasn’t. And like, where the people like him were, and we’re not. So but I can’t imagine growing up in a world like that, because that is not like the area in which we live. Right. I

Jordan 19:09
think that’s the important thing of reading it. And there are some passages that I thought like, just depicted to me like so well, like some to some aspects of his experience. But that’s, that’s why I like reading this because, I mean, here we are, like just kind of talking about our background. And he is, you know, he’s black. And he has studied this topic of, of blackness and of race relations in the history for years in multiple degrees, and now published like multiple books on the toffees dwelled on this for a lifetime. So I feel a little bit out of my element to say like, okay, like we’re going to absorb this and, you know, try to synthesize this with our experiences because we really are coming from two different sets of experiences in many ways. But I think all the more important to read and to expose ourselves to something that might be In our normal course of life, we really wouldn’t have the opportunity to experience

Rosanna 20:04
or we would be too afraid to engage in. And I think that some of it, he says, He recommends that we approach anti racist work with vulnerability. So my question was, why is it difficult to acknowledge our own beliefs or perspectives as being racist? How can recognizing our own beliefs create an opportunity for self education? And how can you help others in their own reflection in learning? I know, I’ve got a question as a question, three questions on top of each other. But I think this topic does lend itself to vulnerability, like who wants to say like, I am in the, like, white majority. And I’m going to talk about this topic that like, might offend somebody or step on their toes or ruffle their feathers like not because I’m ignorant, but because I’m trying to learn more, and I’m trying to figure out, like, what I think about it, and how I want to engage with it moving forward. So it’s just like, are we brave enough to say, like, Hey, this is the book that we’re reading. Because like, when we posted, it was like, okay, like, what will people’s response be? for good or bad? Like, Will people join us in reading this and engaging in this topic? Or will people be like, Nope, not for me, you know, unfollow, which I could care less, because it doesn’t matter to me, but like, you know, are we going to push each other to kind of grow in areas in which we don’t know enough about or are not currently engaged in?

Jordan 21:27
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I feel like talking about and like, to his point about vulnerability, and talking about race, and being potentially in a position where you would realize some of your own racism definitely makes you feel defensive. I mean, it changes the narrative of how we see ourselves, like, no one that I can imagine would overtly state. Yes, I’m racist. Right? Correct. And I mean, maybe you could go back, like, you know, generations in American history. And people would be more overt with that, or that was more of like a public perspective that people held, and it was more socially accepted. I think there’s been a lot of improvements in society. And one of those is that now to be deemed a racist is a very negative term. And so to apply it to ourselves, is very uncomfortable. Because it’s like, No, I’m not, I care about everybody. And I try to afford everyone the same respect. And, and we can have this idea of who we are. So it requires vulnerability, because you have to let go of that a little bit and acknowledge that maybe, even in your complicity, you have permitted certain disparities to continue,

Rosanna 22:45
but you have to own who you are good or bad. And so I just, I don’t like that notion that that people are unwilling to, to own who they are. But here’s the thing. So he is a black man. And multiple times in this book, he talks about how he works to be an anti racist, yet multiple times in his life, he has been racist, right? racist against white people, racist against other black people, racist against women, women racist against, you know, but right, just this, this notion of sexist against women or against people who are gay or lesbian, like, so he talks about how he has really put up his guard and has pushed other people out for being different for a variety of reasons. And he says, like, Yeah, I was racist against my own people, or like, black people like this, or black people like that, or white people like, like, so I think that was almost comforting in the fact that like, we all have prejudice, of things that we’re afraid of, and push people away or keep people away, or say or do things that are not kind and loving. But how do you continue to like, move past some of those things and grow?

Jordan 23:56
Yeah, it was comforting because he doesn’t come out with this, this finger pointing it’s much more of this this confessional almost like this modeling of how he recognizes some inadequacies with his own perspectives towards people and works to fix those. And I feel like he kind of has two elements like one is that individual elements where he kind of argues like you need to continually refine and work on the way that you view others because there’s a lot of implicit biases that we we tend to hold and are not even aware of how they’re operating in, like within our interactions and within our thoughts. And that’s one of the things that struck me too, is that like, there’s almost like this tendency for us as humans to I would say, like to have thoughts and to cast people, certain people as like the other and to attach like negative attributes to that. So it seems like almost like this innate thing and it takes away work to recognize and to counteract that. And so one thing I found, like that book is kind of inspiring and helping you feel like alright, he This is his journey, he’s provided something of a model for that. And he, like he admits he’s not perfect, but this is the work that he’s trying to work on with himself. I can do that, too.

Rosanna 25:17
Yeah. Well, you know, we talked about how this was like a combination of ethics, history, law, science, like all of that, those parts were harder for me to read, what was easier for me to read was his story. And this, like, understanding of himself in the world, and the way the world operates, and even how his perspective of people has changed over time, being racist, moving towards anti racism, like him and I are probably couldn’t be more opposite in a variety of ways. But I felt very connected to him. And I felt very connected to his story. He’s just like, constantly trying to rethink like, Who am I who do I want to be, and even making mistakes along the way, in that journey, like, you know, putting other people aside or casting them aside, because they were different than him. And, but then like, moving through that, and working through that, and I just, I could really connect with that.

Jordan 26:08
One of the statements that he makes towards the end, that I really wanted to have him explore a little bit more, and he didn’t, though he references a few things about it. This is like the root cause of racism is self interest. And that that kind of reverberated with me a little bit, because in a sense, like, when you think about, like, what you want for yourself and for your survival, and for your children, and they’re, you know, trying to provide them with the, you know, everything you could possibly provide them with, that does seem to come at, you know, the opportunity cost of what, you know, others may be able to provide for them selves or for their children. And I wanted him to explore that a little bit more, what he gets much more heavily into is the, the idea of policy. And this is where I would like the history like there’s so much like interesting details about the history. But when he talked about like institutions and policies, like I felt like, that was much more in theory on like, the professor side of him really coming out, like it would be great to like, re examine certain policies, and take out racist policies and really replace them with anti racist policies. But I feel like looking at policy in like, this strictly like racial, like binary kind of way is an oversimplification of, you know, so many of the existing policies that are out there, like we can agree that there are historically and even today, like flat out racist policies that are detrimental to certain people of color. But I think there’s also even some well intended policies that have elements of them that have the potential for good, but also elements of them that have the potential for negative as well. And I feel like there’s there’s a lot of complexity that gets, like I’ve said, oversimplified by looking at it strictly through a racial lens.

Rosanna 28:17
I don’t think I can add anything to that. Because a lot of that, I mean, I’ll be honest, a lot of that stuff is over my head, things that probably were a little bit more interesting to me, we’re even talking about things like as he’s getting ready to apply for colleges. And looking at like the education system, and like looking at like taking an LSAT prep class. And the kinds of people that are taking an LSAT prep class and the kinds of people that aren’t the people that have like the tutors that are tutoring them how to take the test. And, you know, he was looking at that in terms of like race. But then he was also talking about that in terms of like, classes, yeah, terms of like, those who are affluent, versus like his parents, right could afford those tutors and prep and tests for him. So what I like about this book, too, is that it draws in like class, and equity along like poverty lines, and things like that, where, you know, people on people from a variety of backgrounds kind of get lost in the shuffle of those things where like, even in education, although it’s set up to be fair and equal, it is not fair and equal. And so there’s that disparity there. Yeah,

Jordan 29:21
I think it talks about like the access, like these things exist, and anyone is welcome to take advantage of it except, like, who has the access to truly do that? And that’s where, like economics and income really plays a role as well. So I was really fascinated to read about that. And he talks about in terms of economics, he talks about his chapter on capitalism as well. And that was one where I felt I would I, I was harder to convince during that chapter. Other chapters. I was like, Yeah, like I totally see this. That was one of the chapters where I felt like there was there’s more to it. So I almost want to read this book again a year from now because There’s so much to unpack from it in terms of the history and the definitions that I kind of want to live out like some of these things or continue to look at the the ideas and perspectives that are here and weigh them a little bit more, see them in action in different arenas a little bit more, and then come back to this text. And then I think, a second reading, for now will help me like more. Just Just understand and digest it.

Rosanna 30:27
Yeah, I agree. I don’t think this is like a one and done. You know, we read it for the purpose of talking about it here. And now. But like, if I had even more time to kind of like, go through this a little bit more slowly, and like, even just read one chapter at a time, and like, really kind of sit with it, and examine like some more perspectives, or like when he mentioned something, even be able to research it like a little bit further, I think this is one of those books that you can use as like a way to kind of study a topic and not just kind of read and put it aside, right. But I think, really what he’s getting to, through all of this is that being anti racist isn’t like a destination. It’s not like if you say or do or agree with one thing, like you’re there. But it’s like this journey that’s very deliberate and consistent. And I think that’s what he points out along his journey where he’s like, multiple times in my life, I’ve been racist. So but you have to work to not be racist, and to be anti racists. And the work of that is through like self awareness, self reflection, and then like, some kind of action.

Jordan 31:33
And I think he goes further to say, like, that’s the that the the individual element. And I think there’s this more like public element to, because at some point or another, if you’re going to reshape society to be more equitable, like it does require a requires more than one person or even more than individuals working on their own. And so he kind of casts this vision. And I think it’s a bold and inspiring vision of a society that gets over its racism. And there really is equal opportunity and equity for all people. But he talks about kind of like founding the the reset of the anti racism, anti racism Research Center. And so I think that’s the other half of it to where you have individuals who are working on themselves. But then also, there’s like that teamwork and that collaboration, and that study, and he even talks about, like trying things, and when we try to implement something, we follow it closely to see how it turns out. And if it works, that’s great. If it doesn’t work, not getting frustrated, but then like, learning from that and finding the next thing that we believe can work. Yeah.

Rosanna 32:44
So do you have any other kind of thoughts? or just anything you want to kind of use to kind of close this out?

Jordan 32:53
Yeah, I mean, my, I guess, like my take away from reading this, and I would consider this conversation now. Like just scratching the surface, oh, two of us.

Rosanna 33:01
100% 100%.

Jordan 33:03
But it is that the kind of thing that like he says, like it does require requires work and kind of this ongoing self examination. So that is, that’s one of my biggest takeaways. And, you know, I’m very willing to, like follow his lead to examine my own experiences and perspectives and thoughts and try to make sure that it matches what i what i say they are kind of going back to like the stories that we tell ourselves, like I do, try to picture myself as a good person who is going to use the resources at my disposal to make the world a better place. And so, you know, at times the way I might envision, you know, the world is a better place and or what it takes to get there may not match exactly someone else’s. And I think that’s okay. But at least engaging in the dialogue, engaging in the personal work, engaging in the world around us, is what’s necessary. And that’s what I’m interested in, reading other works, and just continuing to, like, follow through that process with you to try to, you know, make something good happen in the world. Yeah,

Rosanna 34:11
I agree. I mean, this isn’t an easy topic to talk about. It’s not an easy topic to even read about. Because even as you’re reading, you’re like, you know, you’re taking it in and you’re, you’re questioning yourself and your own attitudes, your own beliefs, your own actions, ones in the past one, you know, what’s what you’re currently in the present. And then, you know, asking yourself, where do you want to be in the future, that we are constantly moving forward before we’re left behind?

Jordan 34:34
Yeah. Yeah. So we do recommend to each of you that if you have the opportunity that you read this and just like you heard Roseanne and I dialogue through it, it doesn’t mean that you read it and, and agree wholeheartedly and nod your head with every sentence, but that there’s an open opportunity to think through what someone else is presenting to us and synthesize that with our Other things that we’re continuing to learn engage with,

Rosanna 35:02
he is doing a talk right more locally

Jordan 35:05
doing a local talk for us. We’re signed up on November 9, to attend he is going to join the schomburg library, as well as the several a few neighbors libraries,

Rosanna 35:15
yeah,

Jordan 35:16
opened up the opportunity to do that. So I’m looking forward to hearing from him himself. And maybe we can invite him to be on the show with us too.

Rosanna 35:22
So maybe we can link that because people will be listening to this. And then the talk happens really right after that. So we can link that on our show notes so people can get to it. Yeah.

Jordan 35:33
Well, thanks for joining with us today. And like I said, there’s certain things that we’ve said that you may agree with, or you may disagree with. And I think that’s great. It’s all about having honest dialogue and doing the best job that we all can to try to turn the world into what we envisioned it to be. Yeah,

Rosanna 35:51
thank you for joining us. For those of you had read it. We would love to hear maybe some of your thoughts maybe what some of your takeaways were. So feel free to reach out via social media, or even on our website and email. So we will see you soon. Thanks, everybody. Hi.

Jordan 36:05
Thanks so much for listening to today’s show. We hope you will use this conversation as a starting point for your own. We hope you’re encouraged to think and act more intentionally.

Rosanna 36:15
If you want to learn more, you can visit our website, the relentless pursuit podcast comm where you can find notes on today’s show, plus additional blog posts, and you can subscribe to our free members list.

Jordan 36:27
Please subscribe, leave a review and share with your friends.

Rosanna 36:30
Facebook and Instagram are two great places to connect with us for daily doses of our quotable quotes behind the scenes and real time photos,

Jordan 36:38
videos and challenges. Until next time, let us know how you are taking life off autopilot

Rosanna 36:43
and relentlessly pursuing what matters

 

Rosanna 0:15
Welcome to season two, Episode Three of the relentless pursuit podcasts. This one’s titled considering minimalism. So in addition to talking about carpool and back to school and all of the other things that parents talk about one of the ideas that you and I continue to examine and kind of explore is our relationship to objects.

Jordan 0:37
So many objects,

Rosanna 0:38
So many objects, so little time. Um, I think one of the ways that I defined you as I wrote your bio for our webpage, was that I called you a minimalist.

Jordan 0:49
right, which I thought was a bit erroneous, maybe a bit exaggerated, like I, I don’t feel attached to objects, but I think in my mind, minimalist is something that is a little bit more extreme.

Rosanna 1:02
So you’re thinking of minimalist as like someone who has like a tiny house like 400 square feet and has one shirt and one pair of pants. So I did. That’s how I characterized you. Because you’re not a things and stuff person. You don’t like to accumulate things. You don’t attach, like value to objects. You’re not like the guy who wants a fancy car, or expensive watches or that like those things just don’t hold value for you.

Jordan 1:27
Well, I wouldn’t mind having those things either. But I feel like we, I think even despite that, that we do have so many objects, and I do feel like that it preoccupies our time and attention, even though I think there’s a lot of practicality and necessity to those. So it’s worth examining, like how many we have, how many is worthwhile, what is the purpose and what’s our relationship to those things?

Rosanna 1:52
Okay. Well in America, there’s this belief that kind of permeates our culture. And that belief is that material possessions improve an individual’s personal and social well being. And I think that’s, you know, like if you think about the American dream, right like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, a lot of people would say that the pursuit of happiness is the pursuit of obtaining more things. So, contrary to this belief, multiple studies show that materialists and we’ll define those as people who excessively are concerned with material possessions have lower social and personal well being.

Jordan 2:31
So it’s the opposite.

Rosanna 2:32
Correct. So sometimes the more stuff you have it kind of lowers your social and personal well being.

Jordan 2:38
So it doesn’t even not make you happier. It actually makes you feel worse.

Rosanna 2:43
Correct. So when I was thinking about that, and I was thinking about minimalism and materialism all I could think of was the movie Fight Club. And it’s not like that’s one of my favorite movie right so far we’ve quoted what like the Godfather and Fight Club, but –

Jordan 2:56
All these modern philosophers sorry, let’s let’s hear it from a philosopher Tyler Durden.

Rosanna 3:00
There you go. Tyler Durden. “Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy crap we don’t need. We are consumers. We’re the byproduct of a lifestyle obsessions, the things that we own end up owning you.”

Jordan 3:15
I like it when he says, “You are not your kahke pants.”

Rosanna 3:18
Yeah, you are not your white shirt, right? If materialists have lower social and personal well being, what’s the solution to finding more balance, more happiness, more contentment, and better overall well being. Some are saying that it’s the notion of minimalism. So let’s take a look at what that means. You might have heard the term before and you’re not sure what it is. Minimalism is the notion of living with less for the sake of your mental and physical well being. Experts say that living with less helps people be free of financial worry, get rid of clutter that does not add value to your life, and allows people to focus more on experiences rather than objects.

Jordan 3:58
And we had the opportunity to talk to an expert about minimalism and kind of how that, just exploring that, that concept with her. And so in today’s episode, we’re going to present you in a few moments with an interview with a conversation that we had with Kasey Lloyd, who just want to tell you a little bit more about. Kasey Lloyd is positive psychologist and coach who’s worked with the young, the old and everyone in between. Her various professional roles have included psychologist, school counselor, group therapist and caseworker. Kasey hails from Queensland, Australia. She’s a member of the Australian Psychological Society and iscredited coach with Growth Coaching International. She received her bachelor’s from James Cook University and a Master of Science and applied positive psychology and coaching psychology from the University of East London. And she works in partnership with multiple organizations facilitating coaching, consulting and workshops with schools and other businesses and institutions. And Kasey has done a great deal of research and most recently has published some of this original research about the topic of minimalism in the International Journal of Applied Positive Psychology. So we enjoyed our conversation that we had with her. And I feel like I’ve only learned a lot from her but she helped us just understand and I think articulate a little bit more about just how we should think about our own, like you said, mental and physical well being and how that intersects with for better or worse with the objects in our lives.

Rosanna 5:36
Yeah, it was interesting to talk to her about materialism, minimalism and overall well being. It’s not really focusing on happiness, but well being what’s best for our mental, mental and physical health.

Jordan 5:49
Right. So in this interview, we hope you enjoy you’ll hear us ask her a bunch of questions and to stick around afterwards for some of the takeaways that Rosanna and I had from that conversation.

Welcome to the show Kasey. It’s nice to have you here with us on the relentless pursuit podcast.

Kasey 6:07
Thanks for having me.

Jordan 6:08
We wanted to just to kick off and ask you to tell us a little bit about positive psychology and how that led you to begin taking a look at minimalism.

Kasey 6:20
Okay, so I guess the best way to describe positive psychology is to think about what we know about traditional psychology. So traditional psychology looks at fixing what’s broken, I guess is the is the layman’s way of describing it. So we go to a psychologist when we’re anxious or depressed or struggling. And what positive psychology is, is it’s more of a, I see it more as a proactive rather than a reactive approach. So it can be used in conjunction with traditional psychology therapies, and it can assist with mental health issues and the like. But what it actually does, I think most importantly, is it buffers against mental illness. So positive psychology is about it’s the scientific study of optimal human functioning, and what makes life worth living. So rather than looking at kind of deficits and problems, it looks at strengths and potential and that kind of thing. So, yeah, it’s some it’s relatively it’s a relatively new field in psychology. That’s about 20 years old now. Um, and, yeah, it’s just I think when I came across it, I was working as a school counselor and I was doing I got to do a coaching accreditation program and I came across positive psychology during that and I was just like, this is the, this is the piece of the puzzle that’s missing that, you know, there’s so many people that don’t fit traditional mental health diagnoses like they don’t have depression, they don’t have anxiety, but they’re not exactly living their best life. So they’re they’re functioning they’re getting through the day, but they’re not flourishing. So that’s where positive psychology instead of, and God, I could talk about this all day. But if you look at the so called, like, well being on a continuum where zero is functioning, you know, minus 10 is severely depressed and 10 is like living your ultimate best life ever. Traditional psychology kind of gets you from, you know, down this end of the scale from minus five to zero, one, or two, whereas positive psychology wants to take you from there all the way up to eight, nine or 10. So, does that answer the question with that?

Rosanna 8:48
That’s great. One of the reasons we started the podcast, it was part of it was to do something together, but we wanted to do something positive that made a difference and really the kind of the tagline for our podcast is taking life off autopilot and relentlessly pursuing a life worth living together. So talking about this like life worth living, what does that mean? What does that mean? What does that look like? And how do we take like, good to great and that’s really what like kind of excites us and so you know, that’s those are the topics we’re looking at it like yeah, life is life is good and life is okay but maybe the prescribed narrative for people isn’t making them fulfilled and so how can we talk about things that get people to kind of think about their life their intentionality with what they’re doing and move them from good to great?

Kasey 9:35
Positive psychology? Yeah. You’ll go down a rabbit hole later looking at positive psychology websites and books and research. Yeah, absolutely. That’s what it is.

Jordan 9:48
This is a bit of an aside like that reminds me of like, we get a lot of advertisements for like coaching. Like life coaches are sometimes they’re specific to certain industries or niches like a real estate coach, like how would you equate positive psychology to like the coaching industry?

Kasey 10:07
So the way we were so my, the master’s degree that I did, and so after I did this coaching accreditation program, I went back to my school principal and I said, just so you know, I’m going to be leaving my job at some point because you sent me on this program that I’m doing a Masters of Science in applied positive psychology and coaching psychology at the University of East London. So the way we speak about positive psychology and coaching is that positive psychology is the theory. And it’s the it’s the research and coaching is the application. So without coaching, you may not get the benefit of positive psychology, I guess. I mean, you could do it, obviously. on your own, but a coach is somebody who’s going to help you understand and apply the research. Yeah. So there’s there’s a field called positive psychology coaching, which is about kind of melding the two of them together.

Jordan 11:16
So how did you kind of know you’ve examined a lot of areas related to positive psychology? How was minimalism one of the things that you ended up crossing paths with?

Kasey 11:30
It’s an interesting one. I think it’s, I think it’s an interesting story. So we had to come up with a dissertation topic and we could it you know, you could choose whatever you wanted. It just had to be related to well being and, you know, positive psychology and I was really struggling. I’ve got a lot of interest areas. I’m interested in so many different things. And I was really I wanted to come up with some research that I really enjoyed. And that I guess the other thing that I wanted it to be something a little bit new and fresh, I didn’t want to do something that had kind of been done before but doing it in a different way. And I wanted it to be something that I might like to use later in, in my work. And I was sitting, I remember, I was sitting on my bed, putting my boots on in London ready to go to a lecture and I looked over at my, you know, my side table, my bureau and I had this accumulation I only been in London for maybe no more than three months. And I had all of this stuff kind of accumulated on the top of my dresser and I thought, gosh, how am I accumulated that much stuff already? Like how can I hairspray when do I ever use hairspray? Why do I have that, you know? And I was like, Ah, that could be a good topic. Minimalism of all there’ll be plenty of research on that already. Because you know, so many people, so many podcasts that pick you know, it’s such a popular topic. And I started looking. And there was really not a lot of research. And so I thought, well, this is it. This is what I’ll do. I’ll I’ll do some grounded theory research about does minimalism improve wellbeing? And if you know what, what, what are we looking at here? Why are the reasons that it might improve our well being? So that’s how I came up with the idea, basically, because I had accumulated a lot of crap since arriving in London.

Jordan 13:36
But I think that’s where we were headed to like is we look around and I, you know, I don’t feel like we have an overabundance of possessions, but we got a lot of stuff. And so I think at least it’s good to at least raise the question and examine, like, what is our relationship to all these possessions that we have, especially in the modern era where there’s so much available for so cheap and So accessible. You know, like the running joke, especially since we’ve been at home for so long is all of the Amazon rays and mail deliveries that are piling up outside of people’s houses. And it’s is kind of funny to joke about that. But I think it raises more serious question of like, just how do we, how do we navigate the world of stuff? Is it to what extent we want to appropriately use the things around us without it taking on? You know, something that can becomes a hindrance to our well being to the life that we really envisioned for ourselves?

Kasey 14:36
Yeah. And I think when I started looking into the research, like I said, there wasn’t a lot around minimalism or low consumption lifestyles. There’s, there’s a little bit there and it’s, but a lot of it’s anecdotal. And a lot of the few studies that there are, you know, this is There’s some meaningful links. But like I said, there’s not a great deal. But there is a lot of research around materialism. And so materialism is this idea that, you know, possessions are the central focus of the life and it’s the it’s the primary means of life satisfaction, you know, I’ve got my stuff, I’ve got my house, I’ve got my, my possessions, you know, even if you don’t think like that, it’s this idea. And it is the great, I guess the great American dream is to the great Australian dream. Have your house, your car, your boat, maybe. So, and they the research in materialism consistently shows that there is a negative relationship between materialism and life satisfaction. So even though we think that these things make us happy, they just don’t. And so I think that’s probably something that yeah, that we don’t we just don’t think about so this is idea that and lots of reasons why that might be the case. So far. Like, I’m having, I guess, negative self appraisals and comparing yourself to other people. So the idea of keeping up with the Joneses, or the Kardashians, I guess. And I think there’s this, I don’t want to get too theoretical, but there’s a theory ready to go with that yet. self determination theory where we basically, we, we want to satisfy these three psychological needs, which are autonomy, competence, and relatedness. And if we don’t meet those needs, or if materialists don’t meet those needs, they tend to compensate with possessions. And but then what happens is, they’re still not satisfied. They’re still not happy. So they continually, I guess, have to purchase more to feel a sense of joy because when you do purchase something Did you have that initial buzz and that initial Look, I’ve got the shiny new object. But it’s short lived. That’s what the research says it is shortly. So

Jordan 17:09
yeah, I like that word for the buzz. Because that’s what we were talking about, too. Because we when we think of happiness, and it’s like, well, we know when I buy this, it makes me happy. But I think we misunderstand the term or like maybe better terms like his well being or fulfillment, right? Right. It makes you happy for a moment, but it does not give you lasting joy,

Rosanna 17:30
or purpose or fulfillment.

Jordan 17:32
Yeah. So why do we gravitate so easily towards objects then?

Kasey 17:38
Oh, that’s a good question.

Jordan 17:41
Is it just part of the human psyche to see something and want it so I think oh, I mean, my feeling is there’s a lot of comparison like you. I mean, if you were seeing someone who had the shiny new object, and like next day, we’re gonna get ours.

Kasey 17:54
Yeah, I think that’s that’s definitely part of it. I think. There’s your Um, that we need these things. I need a new guitar. Okay, sorry, I was looking, you know, I need to be able to carry my guitar more easily because the one I’ve got quite cumbersome and it’s difficult to kind of manage and get down this day. So I should get a traveling like a soft case it’s going to be easier. But, you know, that’s another thing that I need. Do I actually need it? You know, what is there? Is there a real clear defined purpose for it? Or is it just going to make my life a little bit easier? So I guess there is that something’s off, um, do make our lives easier. But I guess it’s about thinking. Do we want an easy life? I don’t know.

Unknown Speaker 18:48
Yeah, well,

Rosanna 18:49
that’s something that we found as we’ve gotten older to where like, we’re questioning like, Oh, I want that. And so sometimes I’ll put it on like a list like on my phone or on a piece of paper like okay, like my birthday. Coming up, and I’ll look at this list. And I’ll actually think about, like, do it. Do I actually want that? Do I need that? Like is, is this many dollars worth? Like it is? Is it? Is it meaningful enough to buy this object? And am I going to get a cheap thrill out of it? Right? Looking at it real quick and being happy about it? Or like, does this serve a function or a purpose? And I don’t think that I was one, you know, 10 years ago to think about that. It was like, Oh, I kind of want that I have the money, I’ll buy it. And I think that it’s not until you’re a little bit older, and maybe like getting rid of those things that you thought you want it that you realize, maybe I need to start thinking about if I really need or want those things.

Jordan 19:38
It almost seems like we need to like ask I guess yourself or distinguish between a need and a want. And then at least if we understand that difference, then we say what I want at will, how badly do I want it and picture the long term involvement of that item with our life.

Rosanna 19:56
So how would you define if there’s Is there a definition for like minimalist, minimal And what is the what is the definition?

Kasey 20:03
If I had to define mental minimalism, I think I define it in my research as this conscious decision to live with your possessions. Okay? And that’s it. That’s my minimalist minimalism definition. Yeah, there are a lot of extreme minimalist things so people who are you know, sleeping on a sleeping mat on the floor and they have their free black t shirts and you know, one bar of soap that washes their hair, face body clothes, car, you know, that kind of thing. Um, but I think my argument and I guess that is on you know, in some of the the writings about minimalism is that it’s more about creating and sustaining your own definition of minimalism. So What is minimalism for you? And, you know, I think it’s tricky because there are a lot of bloggers and that out there who, you know, people that I’ve spoken to have kind of said, Oh, I don’t really like. So and so they they seem so pretentious. And, you know, I can’t possibly live up to that standard of minimalism. I’m like, that’s totally the, you know, the wrong way of looking at it. And it shouldn’t be making us feel like we try. You know, it’s almost like materialism. Again, we’re trying to keep up with other people. You know, minimalism shouldn’t be about trying to be a better minimalist than so and so. It should be about, you know, what is it for you? And I think that’s, that’s how I would like people to define it, you know, to think about what does it mean for me and it might mean that you know, when I go shopping, I’m going to really think about what I’ve already got in my wardrobe for you Example and think about really consciously think about what I’m buying and whether or not it’s going to, you know, go with what I have already or do I need to remove something to make room for it? Or am I going to shop and for quality rather than fast fashion and that kind of thing? So yeah, I think it’s very individual.

Jordan 22:19
That’s one of the things that we were wondering too, could be two people with two very different sets of quantities of possessions both no claim to be minimalist, and it seems like the answer would be yes. Because it really depends on their perspective towards what they have and maybe even what they had before they make this declaration about themselves.

Kasey 22:40
Definitely, definitely. And I think, and I remember one of the people I interviewed talked about having, she had like, seven pairs of the exact same shoe, um, you know, in her closet, and she said to me, I was like, you know, But for her, they were on sale. This is the type of shoe that she wears, and they will last her lifetime. She will, you know, she will use one set until until it falls apart. And then so it was like, Well, you know, that’s actually and she said compared to what she used to be like she would have had, you know, however many pairs times, you know, whatever so yeah, it It definitely. I think it’s definitely depends on on you and your own definition. It’s interesting, too. You mentioned about making the declaration about, you know, being a minimalist, because there’s definitely people who identify as you know, I’m a minimalist, but I did find when I was reaching out for participants for my research, people would reply and they would say, Oh, look, I don’t really like I wouldn’t say I’m a minimalist, but this is my you know, experience and yeah, I think it’s interesting that I guess it’s kind of like I know I don’t know what it’s like in the States. But here we say you’re not really a vegan unless you tell everybody about it or you’re not a crossfitter unless you tell everyone about it. So, I think, you know, some, I think you can view minimalism. Some people view minimalism like that. But yeah, there’s definitely people who are living with less. And that that wouldn’t consider wouldn’t, you know, give themselves a label as such.

Rosanna 24:33
Do you? Have you noticed any general generational differences when it comes to minimalists? I just think of like our parents generation versus us were versus who were in our late 30s. So yeah, I would even say like people know, younger, like new adults as well, you know, 18 Yeah, yeah, like 18 to 30 and then kind of like 30s and 40s, and even people like 50s 60s and 70s. Do you see a difference in their relationship to possessions Just based on like the time and the way in which they were raised impacting that.

Kasey 25:06
I haven’t I haven’t looked into it and, you know, scientifically so it’s not this isn’t this is just more anecdotal. And that even speaking to like participants and I and other people in the research side of the research sorry, there is definitely the older generation seems to keep stuff and want their children to then keep this stuff as well. So, um, we’ve noticed

Jordan 25:41
that especially my sorry, mom, if you’re listening

Kasey 25:47
a lot. Yeah, a lot of my participants had this crippling fear of what’s going to happen when their parents die and they have to accumulate all of this stuff. So they were they were some of them. Some of them were really, really, it caused a lot of stress. For them thinking about I’ve got to deal with that whole household when they die. And I just, there’s so much stuff in there. And I don’t want any of it. And I think I didn’t know, there’s this idea that I feel like the old generation, you have things like, you know, the full, full case full of crystal and things like that, that the younger generations are just not really interested in. We’re not we’re not using it as much. And we don’t want to just kind of save it for a special occasion. Like it’s, it’s, we would rather buy stuff that we would use now. So more function Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. But again, there is, um, I think, I don’t know if it’s, it’s, if it’s a generational thing, I know that little kids love their stuff, and they’ll collect stuff. I’m like rocks and pegs and pieces of paper and string. And the and it’s special to them and they’ll hold on to it. And you think what is all of this junk? It’s like a bit some

Jordan 27:14
sections here show collections. What else? Yeah.

Kasey 27:18
Yeah, absolutely. So I think those are probably discussions to have earlier rather than later with kids about stuff. So, um, you know, how important is this? And, you know, it’s nice to have a memory of, you know, your trip to the beach. You know, you can have memories without attaching them to things as well. And I think that’s why people keep a lot of stuff because they think oh, you know, but that reminds me of my trip to so and so. Oh, that reminds me of my wedding day or that reminds me of whatever but the thing didn’t not happen if you don’t have the material to remind you Have that

Jordan 28:00
Yeah, I think that’s one thing that was thinking about too was like that connection of objects to experiences or memories or to, you know, like, areas of one’s life. There’s a really interesting podcast by Malcolm Gladwell that I was listening to not too long ago, and he does two episodes, is mostly ranting about art museums. But he kind of gets into hoarders. And like various people who and he talks about that, like there’s a kind of emotional connection there’s there’s a story that they perceive that’s maybe more a little more heightened than the average person when it comes to objects. And they understand and connect their lives and their experiences to objects a little bit more. And then he goes back to like Ranch, my art museums collect more than they can ever show. This really fast thing I’ll afford you the link. Um, but you know, that’s one thing I was thinking about too, was like, Is it different for different people and I and you know, one of the quotes is like is minimalism for everybody? Like does everyone stands to gain from adopting some degree of a minimalist perspective? Or is it really going to help more people or some people more than others?

Kasey 29:17
I’ve thought about this beat.

And because I, you know, I, when I was doing my research, I was thinking everyone should be doing this. Absolutely. Everyone should be living with lesson. And I was wondering, you know what, um, yeah, thinking about particular friends and whether or not they would benefit from minimalism. I think there are definite benefits for the average person, no doubt. Um, I think you need to well, and this kind of came out a little bit in the research as well as that. You need to have some level of autonomy and choice choosing to live with your possessions. So you need to the benefit and probably only the present if you voluntarily and consciously choose to live that way. So people who are living with fewer possessions because they’re living in poverty or you know in a developing nation or something, they may not benefit from minimalism the way that that we would.

But that being said,

people in lower socio economic, you know, areas or developing nations, they are still subject to the same kind of consumer messages that we are. So, they will still see, you know, the, the the famous basketball player with the brand new, you know, Nikes or whatever, and they still bombarded with those messages. So, I think that there is benefit possibly to thinking about how The attitudes that then attitudes that minimalist have towards consumerism could possibly provide some some well being benefits to to those people. Because that’s not I mean, my research with everyone was middle middle class way Western. And yeah, they they saw very clear benefits to living with less but it was definitely a conscious choice for them.

Jordan 31:31
In your research you reference you reference how other people that you spoke with and have read about and other research like we’re talking about definitely like physical objects in a physical space, but that connected to the mental space that they seemed to experience along with those objects. Can you talk about the relationship between the physical and the mental when it comes to possessions?

Kasey 31:56
Yeah, definitely. Um, I think yesterday idea was that and your, your mental space, what what’s happening in your in your, in your physical space reflects what’s happening in your mental space and vice versa. So if you’re living in a cluttered chaotic home that that’s the cause and the result of kind of having a cluttered and chaotic mind if that makes sense. So the participants kind of said that minimalism provided the means to create space, both in their mental world and in their physical world. So, yeah, and this idea of mental energy as well. So they had fewer choices to make, for example, about what clothes they were going to wear that day. So they didn’t have to use the mental energy to, you know, to think about that kind of stuff in the morning. Yes, so it is really interesting the

menstrual cycle. And

physical space, I think the idea that making space for what matters is a bit of a catchphrase Mimosa Mimosa boettner. Um, and this was one of the things that didn’t pop up much in the research about that that I had looked at previously. So, yeah, I think there’s um there is a bit of a discussion about cluttering homes and in schools and how that can affect your performance and increase your stress because of the attention it takes away from you know what you’re doing so right now like you know, you wouldn’t believe the my desk at the moment. It’s not particularly minimalist currently, I’ve got kind of projects balanced all over the shop. So and but you know, I always know that if I want to get something done, I completely clear my desk. I have my laptop and whatever I’m working on, because I know that then my focus is there.

Unknown Speaker 34:00
Hmm,

Jordan 34:01
yeah, I’ve experienced that too. And just professionally, like, if I really wanted to focus on something, then getting rid of the the items, the more organized things are making sure that clutter is off my desk. I found that that’s harder digitally, though, because email inboxes are always bouncing. There’s always like tabs open on my screen, I have little files that are working on my desktop. And I found that that’s been just as much if not more, so like, I feel like cluttering some of the mental space. So I want to focus and I’m working on the very screen that a lot of this is going on at the same time. It’s difficult to parse through those.

Rosanna 34:42
Yeah, I find myself clearing my desktop where I’ve got like files just kind of saved when you don’t want to put them away and feeling like you’re like putting all of your clothes and your laundry away and hanging them up and making your bag. Yeah,

Kasey 34:53
kind of interesting. And How good does it feel when when it’s

Yeah,

Rosanna 34:59
great. To cross one thing off your list by taking care of it. I’m interested if you saw any connections with because you said you used to work in a school. And so you kind of understand probably kids to a pretty good degree, we have kids. And we were talking about, you know, as kids, they’re advertising bombarded with things in stuff by advertisers and by friends and what the latest trend is. And as parents, sometimes we recognize, like, they say they want this object or this thing because somebody else has it, or they think it’s going to make them happy. But knowing our kids and their likes and what they actually use, we sometimes try and dissuade them from putting certain items on their wish list or their birthday list. Oh, I forgot. Oh, yeah. But look, what we did get you this really great creative tool, you should really use it. Is that a good thing? Like we try and talk to our kids about that, like the comparison of these friends have these items and maybe the reasons why we don’t kind of leading them through the thinking of we’re intentional about what we’re doing. Choosing for you or even what you’re choosing for yourself, you know, is that a good thing to do? Or as children? Do we give them the freedom to make those choices and figure it out?

Kasey 36:09
No, I think it’s I think it’s a great thing to do. Um, I don’t have children, but I do work with them. So I i think i think it is really important for kids to be thinking about this stuff and to be thinking about where their stuff comes from. So um, I know at least one of my participants was talking about how she would wouldn’t think twice about buying what she would call a plastic piece of the dunk for her child if they wanted it. If they were somewhere and they were like, Mommy, I want this she wouldn’t even think twice about it. And since, you know, consciously making this decision to live with less, she now thinks, where did that come from? Where is it going and up more importantly, because this is not something that this child is going Treasure and keep forever. So I think it is really important to have those discussions with kids and for them to realize that real happiness does not come from these things. It comes from, you know, Christmas morning, for example, sitting around and opening the presence is more likely to be remembered by them than what they actually got. So, yeah, I think that there is research around experiences bringing far more joy and meaning to somebody’s life than possessions. So

Jordan 37:33
definitely, that’s what we wanted to get into as well is I mean, cuz that’s one thing that we’ve we’ve tried to do is make that shit like, especially with with like kids gifts, but more so just in we operate as a family like shifting, like completely away, but like within reason shifting away from purchases of items and trying to make memories and experiences. So is that I mean, our assumption with that is that like, we’ll cherish Have a memory and a unique experience a lot more than, you know, some item that we buy used a little bit to then eventually throw away. But are you saying like that? That is true? Like that’s going to pan out over time that the experiences are definitely the thing to pursue?

Kasey 38:16
Absolutely, absolutely. I even I mean, think back to your own childhood, without getting too deep, but, you know, what, what are the things that stand out? So for me, like, for me, memories of being on our boat with the family, we used to, you know, spend a lot of time on on an island and I you know, we had nothing we didn’t have we took a pack of cars when we went to the island that was our, you know, our only entertainment besides climbing rocks and snorkeling and, you know, playing on the beach. So, you know, when I think back to my childhood, what I remember is 100% experiences You know, with the exception of the time that my brothers bought me rollerblades when my parents wouldn’t, but again, yeah, yeah. Again, the, the memory of that is then that I used to go rollerblading with my older brother all the time. And so it was the experience of that, that I think probably made that the most memorable gift I’ve ever received.

Rosanna 39:22
Let’s not even if it’s about like not spending money or not buying objects, but you know, we’re talking about one of our son’s birthday is coming up and buying a basketball hoop for up front. And it’s an expensive gift that’s more expensive than you know a bunch of cheap plastic toys that he’ll get sick of. But the idea is that we would all be out front as a family around that who playing his friends would come over so it’s all about those things that are tied with it and it’s the object grants you access to the experience like a boat like a boat is not cheap, but the boat allowed for your family to be together to play cards and to have those experience.

Unknown Speaker 39:56
Absolutely Yeah, yeah.

Jordan 40:00
That’s, you know, one thing I’ve thought about too is I’ve texted Roseanne about this because, you know, when you have kids, they’re, you know, opening up gifts. And a lot of the time I feel like it’s, it’s more for the adults like to see that little jolt of excitement like, Oh, you bought me this, but I felt bad especially when they’re really little, like First of all, they’re more interested in the box than what’s inside of it. But then, you know, even if they they are excited to say like, Oh, it’s a truck. Then our next thing is to like take it away and put it to the side and say like, you cannot use this right now because you have X number of more gifts to open. And I always like that always made me cringe a little bit. Just because it’s I just don’t I just didn’t feel like it was what they wanted. Or the right thing to show that we’re just gonna you know, inundate them with with items right now. We have tried to get away from giving gifts to like ask family and friends like for big occasions, to buy the kids Or even for us, you know, when someone asks like, let’s let’s get access to an experience someplace that we can go or something that we can do, where memory could be made. And I have enjoyed that. We’ve also asked like, how much is money for like a college fund? That would be great, but not many takers on that. So I think there’s definitely something to be said something to be said about those experiences because I, I mean, I feel like like personally, those are the things he seems like we end up cherishing the memories and the values and connections that we make through them.

Kasey 41:33
Definitely, definitely. I think you kind of hit on an interesting point there about extended family. So and like I said, with the, you know, participants in my study did fear the what they were going to inherit, I guess, but there they also spoke a lot about struggling to explain this decision to you Their family and grandparents particularly wanting to continually give their child stuff that they didn’t want their child to have. Or, you know, pour more stuff onto them, like, oh, I’ve got this beautiful vase that you should have in your house and I don’t have vase in my house, but really struggling to kind of, you know, politely decline, those kind of things. So that is, I don’t, you know, minimalism does come with, I guess, you know, this dark side of, of possible, not disadvantages, but things to be to consider. And so there is this idea, you know, the idea of the taking on other people’s stuff. I know that a lot of the people that I spoke to really struggled with clutter. So, you know, clutter would make them physically, you know, anxious and down That was a really tricky thing for them. And it was another other thing.

Unknown Speaker 43:08
completely lost it.

Kasey 43:10
Oh, this

a lot of minimalists really struggle with making a quick decision about a purchase freeze. And not saying that they should make a quick decision, but they would painstakingly research all of their options before they would make a decision. And that can be stressful as well. So say if something like a laptop they’ve got to buy, they would be really, you know, really researching every last kind of possible combination of things.

Jordan 43:48
And we’re reading that in your paper that Yeah, I could totally see that. It’s like when you’re at a restaurant and you have a great menu, but you can only get one item. You can spend a lot of time Like looking through that, and it’s that that whole, I think the Paradox of Choice of No, you think more choices would began here, but it’s totally stressful, especially if you’re going to try to limit yourself. Absolutely, yeah. So let’s talk about like consuming. So let’s say we’re at the store. And not that we’ve been to many stores lately. But when we do go with our masks on and we’re distance from everybody, or more likely, like on Amazon or online shopping somewhere nowadays, but we’re considering a purchase what, what kind of thought process would go into a consumer decision for someone who is trying to be more minimalistic.

Kasey 44:50
I would say, Do I need this festival? Do I have something that already does? This is enough question because I feel like that’s something that we we, we do a lot, we will buy things that, that we’ve already got something that will do the same thing. For me and important thing is where will where will this end up? So

Jordan 45:22
you mean like you would end up in the garden away? Yeah.

Kasey 45:25
Yeah, yep, would end up in the garbage.

Um, something like, looked it up, bam. 85% of our clothes end up in landfill. So in the US, it’s something like 25 billion tons per year of textile waste. Like, that’s a lot of stuff.

Jordan 45:45
Right side question. So let’s say someone had a hole in one of his socks. I’m now in 99% of the sock is still pretty good.

Rosanna 46:00
Big 90% of the sock is still good.

Kasey 46:05
Also, this isn’t a hypothetical.

Jordan 46:08
Many, many discussion

Rosanna 46:09
we’ve talked about, like he’s like, Well, most of it still works. I said, right, but there’s nothing wrong with replacing something that’s broken or unusable.

Jordan 46:17
It’s, you know, maybe, but that’s, that’s one of the discussions that we face. And this is where

Kasey 46:23
your own definition of minimalism i think is important. So I have I know people who would patch this up, and I know other people who would say that talk is done or repurpose it into a sock puppet puppet or

so that’s it is

an interesting thing that popped up about the idea that being a minimalist makes you feel more competent because you’re doing you doing things you are repurposing, and fixing and Trying to make the most out of items that you do have before getting rid of them. So that gives you kind of a boost of Oh, you know, I managed to fix this way, you know, last year, I would have just thrown it out. So, there’s that idea as well.

Rosanna 47:13
Have you heard this idea of people doing like a no buy year? Hmm. So like in a life of abundance, it’s a notion of doing with what you have. So like, you know, you wouldn’t buy groceries and you would buy toilet paper things that you run out over you consume, but saying, like making that conscious decision, I’m not going to buy clothes, unless for some reason they no longer fit or there’s a hole or something and sticking to like what the necessities truly are. Hmm. And what do you think of that?

Kasey 47:40
I think it’s I bow down to these people. I think that’s an incredible experiment. And I’ve not done it. I think I should, to be honest, I think it’s something that I would I would be really interested in and I mean, even he, he so I think That I tend to spend my money on when I, you know, I was getting my tax ready yesterday, and I’m looking at kind of the resources and the things that I’ve purchased over the past year. And I added up and I’m like, holy Dooley, like, that’s a lot of, you know, reference books and, you know, things like that. So, yeah, I think it’s, it’s really I think it’s, I think what the power comes down to, I think in the probably the first you know, three to six months would be when you really realize how much stuff you buy that you don’t need. So you know, even just that conscious kind of, you know, you would you would be in a store and you and you would be grocery shopping and be like oh, I might just grab that. Oh, no, hang on. I can’t I can’t actually purchase that. Wow. And I think you would do that a lot before you realize I I make more unnecessary purchases than I then I thought So yeah, there’s there’s no there’s a lot there’s there is a lot of a blogs and stuff about that. I think I find it fascinating. Yeah.

Jordan 49:11
I didn’t hear about that until today when you brought that up. But today, Yeah, sounds like a great idea for someone who wants to like very like, intentionally spend. Well, I like the idea of this for a year or two, if that’s the way like people are orchestrating it. So it’s like, I don’t want to live this way forever, but at least for this amount of time. Oh,

Rosanna 49:31
but I think it comes from the type of person who is looking at intentionality of their life and what they’re doing with their resources and how to better use their resources. And so one of the people that brought this to my attention was to live more frugally within her means because she realized she was spending excess so that she could do more with what she had for others and for herself through bigger experiences, or even building into her own business that she started that it was going to free up funds to let her put it back into

Jordan 49:59
the business to grow. I save a

Rosanna 50:00
lot of money. Yeah, so it’s just an interesting take on that. The other notion that I’ve seen come to light more frequently and friends of others are doing this where they’re basically kind of selling homes and possessions and getting an RV and committing to living in an RV for a year or two, seeking experiences touring the country seeing and living life and letting go of the stuff, which

Kasey 50:25
this is my dream. Your dream,

Rosanna 50:27
this is not my dream. And so I love hearing about it and like, like, I want to know more about it, but the thought of that even scares me a little bit, because that seems that seems extreme. But for a lot of people it is not.

Kasey 50:41
I think it I think it does seem extreme. I think I’m having a home makes people feel safe and secure. You know you’ve got a base and that’s where you that’s where you are where is if you’ve got to Then, sorry, I’m in Australia, there’s bugs flying around. When you’re in a van, it’s a lot, it feels a lot more temporary. So that that does cause that kind of feeling of uncertainty. But for some people that is a feeling of excitement and adventure, so totally Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think I think the way I try to keep my possessions is in preparation for when I will live in event or a tiny home is another and that’s another movement where you know, shipping container kind of home where you can only kind of have so many possessions in there.

Jordan 51:48
So let’s say someone is, you know, listening to this or just otherwise inspired to think a little bit more about decluttering and about taking on more minimalist lifestyle. What are some first steps you would recommend that that person take?

Kasey 52:05
And I mean, in way of things like resources or you know, books and whatnot to read or

Jordan 52:12
just add, yeah, actually, I want to talk about that. So both like if someone is like, Alright, I’m a minimalist now, what am I doing? Yeah, what are some of the first action points? Or maybe just the first things to think about before, you know, before they really dive into it? And then if they want to learn more, like Do you have any recommendations for other resources?

Kasey 52:30
I think, I think talking to other people who have have no experience to have become a minimalist or trying to live with less, I think that’s a really good way to start because they are the most kind of passionate and excited about it. So and they’ll tell you the truth about you know, the things that are difficult, like the family stuff and that kind of thing. I’m starting to take stock of what You have and I think, I think a kind of a call initially is a great idea. So to kind of think about what you have, and it’s not you don’t necessarily have to get rid of some stuff, but maybe the even the idea of putting it somewhere for a year and seeing if you use it in that year, and if you don’t use it in that year, what are the chances of you using it in the next year? I think that’s a really good way to start in terms of resources like the first book I ever read years and years ago was the joy of less by Francine J. I think her last name is and to me, it was just like ding ding ding like light bulbs going off. It was. I think I think the the message from that book that I still think about and uses as an example is the idea of memories and possessions. So you know, she was the one that made me think about if you If you don’t, wedding dresses are a prime example. I don’t have one. But I know a lot of women keep their wedding dress. If you don’t have your wedding dress, it doesn’t mean you didn’t get married, or have a wedding day, you’ve probably got hundreds of beautiful photos that will you know, that help you to remember what what the dress look like. And every time you see the dress, wherever it is, it probably makes you feel guilty about how much space it’s taking up or when or what you could be doing with that instead. So I guess that’s another thing to think about is you know, if you’ve got something that you you’re keeping, maybe does bring you a great deal of joy and every anniversary, you put it on and remember, well, that’s great, but I know that most people are probably not doing that and they’re probably feeling guilty when they you know when they see it in the space that it takes up. So those kinds of things to consider. There’s lots of lots of podcasts and blogs. At the minimalists have a Netflix documentary. And, you know, they write really interesting essays. And, and I have a podcast and Joshua Becker is another one that I really like is called becoming minimalist. And, and he doesn’t do, he talks a lot about kid he has talked a lot about minimalism, and kids and stuff like that as well. So, yeah.

Rosanna 55:26
We just did a one year test. So we moved into our current home about a year ago, and there was a box of stuff in the basement. And it was like a big box that like when we unpacked It was kind of like, I’m not sure what I’m gonna do with this. Do we keep doing that? So we said, All right. It’s in the basement. We don’t see it. We don’t look at it. If after a year, we haven’t

Jordan 55:45
used it. We can’t think of when we’re going to use right.

Rosanna 55:48
So we just purged a whole bunch of stuff that we thought all right. And we haven’t used it. It’s taken up space. We don’t need it and kind of just let that like looked at it as a memory and kind of you No, had that moment of reminiscing and then said goodbye.

Kasey 56:05
And well, that’s another another thing that people like a strategy that people have come up with, because we live in such a digital world, if you’ve got something that’s physical, but you’re like, Yeah, I don’t really want this, but I don’t want to forget that I had it, take a photo of it, you’ve still got the photo, you know, and then you can get rid of the thing. But I guess the other thing is, is not just about getting rid of stuff as well, because, you know, we don’t want to just have stuff in in landfill. So the most important thing is about bringing less in to your home, um, as the most important kind of starting factor. So don’t worry too much about what you have. And if you can, you know, repurpose or recycle or re gifted, you know, one men trash, another man’s treasure, that kind of thing. So just because you don’t have a use for it anymore, doesn’t mean that somebody else’s hasn’t been done. To find one of those,

Jordan 57:04
oh, we’re coming up towards the tail end of our conversation. Can you tell us if someone is interested in connecting with you or learning more about you and your work and positive psychology? Where can they go?

Kasey 57:17
Well, they could go to my website, which is Casey Lloyd calm. Or, you know, follow me on social. So I’m on Facebook and Instagram, and it’s at coach Casey Lloyd. And, you know, I’m not the best social media posting, I try and minimize that a little bit. I’m probably gonna try and get a little bit more active on there. But um, yeah, feel free, they can reach out and I’ve talking about this stuff. And, you know, I’m interested in coaching people around this kind of thing because I know it is a tricky thing to do, especially if you’re struggling to, um, you know, make those make the initial step into Living with less. I do have a little bit of an idea for a online course student actually show you my window. That’s my planning for my online course. On my post it notes. So, yeah, there’s that that possibly could be coming. So maybe keep an eye out for that.

Jordan 58:18
Awesome, great. Yeah. Well, I think we’ve learned a lot and that’s part of our even our desire in hosting a podcast is the excuse to have good conversations with one another and with knowledgeable people like yourself. And so it gives us a lot to just continue to, you know, just digest and reassess, really, our how we’re doing with things and making sure we’ve like in our shared taglines making life worth living.

Rosanna 58:49
Yeah, I like this idea of it being connected to well being and fulfillment and sustainability and joy like things that are not words

Jordan 58:57
we talk about enough. We talk about happiness But I like those words better.

Kasey 59:04
Yeah, well, it’s, you know, happiness isn’t emotion. So it’s fleeting. It doesn’t, it doesn’t. You can’t always feel happy. But you can always have meaning or you can, you know, have purpose. And, and so yeah, this is definitely more scope to talk about that kind of stuff for sure.

Rosanna 59:27
Thank you so much, Casey, it was such a pleasure speaking with you.

Kasey 59:30
Thanks for having me. Yeah.

Jordan 59:34
All right. Well, we hope you enjoyed our interview with Casey Lloyd, as much as we did. I felt like it was a privilege to be able to speak to an expert, who gave us think a great deal more understanding and helped us articulate maybe some of the inclinations and feelings that we’ve had about minimalism over the years.

Rosanna 59:56
Yeah, just getting a definition of it or working definition, seeing how it applies. in different areas of buying and purchasing and health and happiness, I think that’s a good way to help understand it in terms of our own lives.

Jordan 1:00:07
Yeah. So we were taking a lot of notes as we were, we were going in fact, I was impressed maybe it’s just my handwriting smaller, but rosianna wrote some significant amount of notes all over our papers here. And we were just learning a whole bunch from Casey. So we had a few takeaways that we just wanted to dialogue through a little bit, and maybe there’s even some more beyond that, that you enjoyed from the conversation as well. And we’d like to hear what impacted you. So that the first thing I wanted to bring up was something that she mentioned and we explore this a little bit sterner conversation is that I think we can be misled a little bit when we tell ourselves that we are pursuing happiness. And and that’s this core American phrase, the pursuit of happiness. But I think there’s this interesting contrast To between happiness and fulfillment, or happiness and well being, and it seems like happiness can be this feeling that we have, but it can be a very fleeting feeling. And we keep finding somewhat fleeting experiences like the purchase of an object to give us that little happiness spike, but it goes away almost as quickly as it arrives. You know what I’m saying?

Rosanna 1:01:26
Yeah, it doesn’t do anything for any kind of long term well being, it’s like, oh, new shoes. Mm hmm. You know, add them to the cart, they get delivered, you put them on, you know, they’re fresh. Mm hmm. And then, you know, a couple days a couple weeks later, it kind of

Jordan 1:01:40
wears itself out right. Once the newness wears off, so too does the feeling that came with that newness. Whereas maybe something more meaningful to pursue is fulfillment or well being and those are certainly terms that I’m going to be considering much more consistently now. But just for the sake of wondering like okay, if I am going to buy some thing or if I am going to add this object to my life in this way, in, in what manner will it end up impacting my well being? And maybe it is a practical item and I you know, of course, I’m not like totally anti consumerism, I

Rosanna 1:02:14
was gonna say we still need toilet paper. Yeah, so and you know, toothpaste and eat

Jordan 1:02:19
those things, right? So there’s a practicality to our consumer choices. But I think the bigger picture is just looking at the the way we live, and the things whether they’re objects or experiences or relationships. So you’re just about to fill in the blank with anything that we put in our lives. To what extent is that helping us pursue a feeling that really matters and I wouldn’t say happiness is that feeling I would say this contentment, or this well being, and sometimes it’s it’s fewer objects, sometimes it’s fewer things that we’re being inundated with, that would increase our feeling of fulfillment.

Rosanna 1:02:55
So just taking on more objects is not necessarily going to fulfill us,

Jordan 1:02:59
right. could even have the opposite impact. Gotcha. And so that really hit me. And another thing that stood out to because I felt this, but never really articulated it this way it was when she talked about our physical objects, not only occupying a physical space, but also occupying a mental space. And so the more objects we have, the more mental space is allocated towards,

Rosanna 1:03:28
you know, organizing, arranging, yeah,

Jordan 1:03:31
and just like understanding those objects and the more cluttered our life was and the more cluttered our mind was, as well. So there is a lot of value in kind of stripping down the objects being organized, getting rid of what you don’t need, because that increases our mental well being and increases maybe even the fulfillment and joy from the objects that we have, because we have more mental and emotional space for experiencing those things. Well, and

Rosanna 1:03:58
that just reminds me Like when I sit down at my desk to work, you ever, like sit down at your desk and there’s just like stuff strewn, it’s like the stuff that you don’t want to deal with the stuff you have to deal with, before I can ever work. Like, I have to, like, clear all that out, right? Like, and then I feel lighter. It’s like, Okay, I’ve got the garbage pile for the recycle.

Jordan 1:04:16
Everything was a nice add on to a to do list and Right,

Rosanna 1:04:18
right, and then it’s just like, I feel like I’m able to work it’s like, I need to get rid of that before I can then have the like mental space to like, create something or or start something

Jordan 1:04:27
right. And so that it takes away even from our creativity and our productivity because we’re spending so much time just organizing the stuff that we have. And I feel this way even with digital objects as well. And I don’t know if how you know how much this intersects with minimalism, but I think of feeling cluttered with my electronic documents or with my emails and right we’ve had these cameras so you laugh at me because I like I have to clear out the inbox and it just drives me nuts. But now I understand what that’s doing. I feel like it’s accurate. Pain, a certain capacity of my mental space. And I want to clear it out so I can feel like I can more focus Li work on what I need to. Yeah.

Rosanna 1:05:11
Well, and I think both of those things talking about happiness versus well being and then mental space and physical space, all gets to the root of one of the words that we always talk about. And that’s intentionality. So I think that if there’s some application for this, there’s some questions that we should ask ourselves in terms of our what are our intentions when we’re buying objects? So I think some of the things that we can ask ourselves is, are we cognizant of the relationship we have with obtaining objects? Like, why are we buying those objects? And I will be completely honest, like, there are times like when when I feel like things are like out of control, or I feel down or something like I want to buy something because like all of a sudden it like it does. It makes me feel happy for that moment. But I’m not considering like, long term like, what am I doing with this, like, sometimes even just buying those things feels good at the moment, but then when you Look at your you know your debit account or your credit card bill and you’re thinking I shouldn’t have done that, you know where it’s like what? I’m gonna feel good now but when I get the bill later I’m gonna feel horrible, right? So it’s like that intentionality like what is the relationship like why am I buying this? Like, am I doing this because I feel bad about something or I feel bogged down and so like I’m trying to like,

Jordan 1:06:19
Is there a practical necessity or you know, something like you’re buying something of quality that will last? So are you suggesting then that when we are when we’re making our purchases, whatever they are, that there’s a pre purchase process of just questioning and assessing what in the world we’re doing before we’re choosing to bring those things into our life.

Rosanna 1:06:40
Yeah, and not just purchasing like on the spot or on the fly? I am and I know a lot of people are like this, like I add things to my cart often and then I’ll let them sit there like so I get the thrill of shopping but I never really checkout right away because I continue to consider that purchase and then I consider that purchase against like maybe like the kids need shoes for back to So like, do I really need this because we’re going to be spending money on that. So it’s like, I kind of weigh those options. And so sometimes I look at them in my cart and drool over them. And like, you know, what if two weeks from now like, I still really think I need those or want those, or I’ve earned those because I’ve worked extra hours, then I will purchase that, but it’s, I’m thinking more about Do I really need it?

Jordan 1:07:20
Yeah, that’s Do I need it? Or do I want thoughtful I that’s, that’s my tattoo rule. Because if you want a tattoo, but I don’t know what the number of years I’ve said, like maybe two or three years, if you want the same tattoo two or three years from now, then it’s okay to go get it.

Rosanna 1:07:36
And you told me that when I was 30 and I was considering a tattoo, and I am now 37 and still do not have a tattoo because I can’t think of one thing that I want now that I may want like three years from now on my body so right

Jordan 1:07:48
no tattoos for me know my face on your back.

Rosanna 1:07:50
No, I love you, but I don’t want that. So that was the first question like what’s the relationship we have with obtaining the object? What’s the reason why what’s the purpose? And then even just thinking about does a large portion of our life revolve around tangible things, right? Like, am I? Am I a person who wants stuff for the sake of stuff like,

Jordan 1:08:11
well, it to an extent Yeah,

Rosanna 1:08:12
we all are right. But how do I I don’t know, how do I just be more intentional about is that is that the kind of person I want to be someone who just collects items.

Jordan 1:08:21
So it’s almost assessing your values first, like, here’s, here’s what I really want to be pursuing in life. Are these objects can be anywhere near that. Right?

Rosanna 1:08:30
Right. So you know, just thinking about that like asking yourself those questions like, if we’re fixated on the stuff, I think this just kind of sums up what you just put into words for me, how do we have room for our values, our visions and meanings that are bigger and deeper than the things we aspire to buy?

Jordan 1:08:50
Well, so what you aspire to buy could even get in the way of your values, right? If it’s cluttering your physical and your mental space Yeah. Okay, and then the stakes are high.

Rosanna 1:09:02
And I’m just getting really deep. And then that does really the second question that application and this is something that Casey spoke about. And it was, where are these things going to end up that we buy? I thought that was a really interesting question. And you know, we, I’m going to go back to like her thing with the kids, like, you know, we can say yes to like these little plastic junky toys for the kids. But we all know where those are ending up mom, the minute they turn around, like after a birthday party, and after all that stuff, like, we throw them away. So it’s like, why would I spend money on an object that I know that I’m just going to throw away? Or that’s going to clutter a landfill and clog up the environment? Like, are? Yeah. Are we really thinking through where this is going to end up?

Jordan 1:09:37
Yeah, I think it’s a thoughtful question. Because there’s kind of three phases to the object. There’s the one like before we have it, there’s a time while we have it, and then at some point, we’re not going to have that object. And it might be you know, when we die,

Rosanna 1:09:53
well, we’re Yeah, we’re not going to have the objects

Jordan 1:09:56
have it? Or we may choose to you know, just you know, Get rid of it by selling it or giving away or throwing it away at some point too. So I think that’s an important question to ask. But even while you have it, is this just going to end up being in a drawer? Or is this just going to end up taking up unnecessary space that I could use for some better purpose? And then eventually, what is the what is the final destination of this object? And when you picture it at its final destination, I think that adds a little bit more perspective of its current involvement in your life to kind of like when you picture your own, you know, not to be morbid, but you picture your own, like final destination. Right, it gives perspective to the time that you do have so maybe that’s, you know, I will always have this object but now during the time that it is in my life, what is the role that it plays?

Rosanna 1:10:45
Yeah, you want What is that? It’s kind of like a kind of a joke, like a more of a joke. Like, you can’t take it with you like, right, so what are you gonna do with that? Yeah, so I think those are just you know, what is your relationship to objects? You know, what portion of your life revolves around Those things, those handbags, those, you know, jewelry, clothing, shoes, or whatever it is, and then where are these things actually going to end up? Exactly. And that might sway you from buying things that you don’t need. So it’s all about the intentionality I think in front of it and the thoughtfulness going into a purchase. That’s good. So there’s a lot of questions that we can continue to ask ourselves. And I think for us, we’re going to evaluate and just seems like an ongoing process, right? Like, we’re gonna re evaluate our relationship to the objects that we have, as time goes on, as well, to make sure that we, we may never call ourselves minimalists per se, but at least asking the right questions may help us lead a more fulfilling life, right? Even though I like to shop and art, right.

Jordan 1:11:47
Alright, so we strongly encourage you to check out the show notes will where we’ll provide links for everything that you heard us enjoy talking about today. And we also strongly encourage you to To find Kacey Lloyd and she’s doing some incredible work and I think that you all will learn a lot more from her.

Rosanna 1:12:07
Well, this wraps up season two, Episode Three, and we will see you next week. Bye. Bye.

Jordan 1:12:15
Thanks so much for listening to today’s show. We hope you will use this conversation as a starting point for your own. We hope you’re encouraged to think and act more intentionally.

Rosanna 1:12:24
If you want to learn more, you can visit our website, the relentless pursuit podcast comm where you can find notes on today’s show, plus additional blog posts, and you can subscribe to our free members list.

Jordan 1:12:36
Please subscribe, leave a review and share with your friends.

Rosanna 1:12:40
Facebook and Instagram are two great places to connect with us for daily doses of our quotable quotes behind the scenes and real time photos, videos and challenges.

Jordan 1:12:49
Until next time, let us know how you are taking life off

Rosanna 1:12:52
autopilot and relentlessly pursuing what matters