Season 3, Episode 4: Book Club – “Everybody Always”

Rosanna 0:14
Welcome to season three, Episode Four of the relentless pursuit podcast. This episode is our book club episode. And we read Everybody Always: becoming loved in a world full of setbacks and difficult people by Bob Goff. Bob is an author, speaker, attorney, founder of human rights organizations in Uganda, India, Nepal, Iraq and Somalia. He’s a husband, father and pilot and loves helping people pursue their dreams. And he says his greatest ambition in life is to love others.

Jordan 0:43
He wrote the book on love, and literally.

Rosanna 0:47
his first book is Love Does. And this is kind of like a follow up, called everybody always and so I first read this book about three years ago, and I remembered it fondly. And although Jordan and I have very different tastes in books, I know that this probably wasn’t one of his favorites. But it’s a very light read. Bob is a storyteller, obviously, like the many roles that he’s played in these organizations and as an attorney, and as a speaker, he has a story for everything like – And the stories are crazy. I mean, they really are. They’re, they’re not ordinary stories. But I think the point of the book is that it’s easy, and it’s easy to love kind, lovely, humble people, especially if they’re just like you. But in order to love people who are difficult, you’re going to have to tackle the fears that you have. Oftentimes in like the dark, scary places of life, those those places are filled with beautiful people who need our love. And so our ability to love has the power to change not only those people’s lives, but our own lives. So we should love without inhibition, without insecurity or without restriction.

Jordan 1:54
Okay. Did you write that? Was it was that one of your takeaways?

Rosanna 1:59
That wasn’t one of my takeaways, that’s just how the book is promoted.

Jordan 2:03
Yeah. So once a season, we’ll have a book club episode. And I think, you know, we’re reading a lot these days. And so it’s nice to read the same book together. And we we’ve shared a few thoughts about it so far. But I mean, what you’re going to hear is really, our first thorough discussion about what we’ve learned from this book. So how do you want to go about this? Do you want to just fire away –

Rosanna 2:30
Yeah we should just start I mean, I think I gave a good kind of synopsis of it’s it’s a bunch of little vignettes, the different stories from his life, and the way in which he learns about showing love or people teach him about love. Throughout his journey in life.

Jordan 2:45
Yeah. Yeah. It was, did you read Love Does?

Rosanna 2:49
I did not read Love Does.

Jordan 2:50
I didn’t either. Okay, so that might be one that we can circle back to at some point. So this is really the sequel, in a sense, it doesn’t feel it doesn’t feel like a sequel, but it is his second publication.

Rosanna 3:02
No, I but I think the the pretense of that one is if you love someone, then you then you do something that love does

Jordan 3:08
There’s an old song – “Love is a Verb.”

Rosanna 3:10
There you go. Love is a verb. And you know, it’s a great way I think, just to wrap up love month, you know, we’ve talked been talking about loving my person and my people about loving our neighbors and like the, the expanded definition of what a neighbor is even loving ourselves. And so I think this is a good way to tie all of those ideas together, that it’s not just, it’s not just about ourselves, like, love is meant to be multiplied to many people.

Jordan 3:34
Yeah. And I think in before we get into the book, specifically, I think what motivated our choice behind it was that we are interested in being just bigger, like better at loving. And I think that’s something we’ve been conscientious of for some time, but especially with the focus of love month, it’s useful to find a tool like a book doesn’t have to be a book, but to find something like that, that is going to just like spur us to maybe think in some expanded directions inspire us to do some things that maybe we had some hesitation on before. So I think it can see that as really like fulfilling that role for us.

Rosanna 4:10
Well, and you know, we just you are coming off an election and a new inauguration and all of that too. And you know, the the tagline here is becoming love in a world full of setbacks and difficult people. And so you know, he’s right, it’s easy to love people who are just like us, or people who are our friends or our family or people we’re comfortable with. But how do you how do you love people who think the opposite from or don’t agree with you –

Jordan 4:33
Not just the opposite – but people just think differently, have a different background or set of experiences or perspective? Yeah, I think sometimes we we have our preconceptions about others that can stand in the way.

Rosanna 4:45
Well, and that we wouldn’t love them because they’re not like us. But really, we should be loving everybody. Always.

Jordan 4:52
So it’s a great title. And maybe in a sense, the title says it all. Alright, so let me get a few things off my chest first because you know, as with any book or book club, like, I’m going to think about it, maybe a little bit more than becomes useful. But I would honestly say that I found about one third of the book useful. And it’s, it’s the last third, so I had to work for it. Um, so any of you who have read this along with us or have read this previously, hopefully, you found more value in it. But I don’t know if you felt this way. But first of all, it’s like I would say it’s very churchy. And I wasn’t expecting that, like I, in a way I just want like, I just want the book I just like, teach me about love. This is something that he’s kind of studied and thought about and done a lot with just just hit me with it. But I felt like it was kind of encapsulated in just a lot of, I’m going to use the word pithy – I know no you don’t approve of my use of it as often as I do – but there’s, in a sense, it gets a little formulaic and very surface level for a while, at least for me, and interwoven with that are a few nice examples. He’s a great storyteller, it’s very entertaining, it almost reminds me of like a Dave Sedaris kind of style where he can, he can make you chuckle. And in the course of like, he’s slightly self deprecating, and, but he’s also like, very seems like very charming. He’s obviously a talented attorney. And he must have a lot of money because he’s taking his kids like all over the world and in traveling places. And he must have a lot of time to it seems like because of the just the crazy things that he seems to be engaged in.

Rosanna 6:40
Well you make time for what’s important. So he obviously is able to relentlessly pursue what he loves. And he says he loves loving people and helping others find their passions.

Jordan 6:48
And that’s one of the pieces that I felt was missing from this was okay, like, you are literally all over the world doing some really interesting things. And he’s like, a big charmer, right? I mean, he’ll just, like, I just kind of struck up a conversation with the chief justice in Uganda. And now we’re friends. And we hung out at Disney World for a whole day. And like, I mean, he there’s there’s definitely a lot of charm to his persona. So I almost want you to break that down, like okay, like, Well, how do you like have that kind of charm that lets like, lets people lower their defenses. And you can even be like vulnerable and like a little silly with people. How do you have the time to manage your law practice have however many kids that he has three or four have this marriage and still kind of be the kind of person who’s he’s like, hyper connected, just he just names drop name, name drops, all kinds of people in the story, too. So I felt like those elements were missing. And then what it was replaced by which I didn’t totally find value in was like, there was there would be like a personal story, you could see the formula. And then he would tie it to, like a religious concept. And then there would be like, a little hint at the end about how that relates to love. And after, like, seeing the first set of chapters laid out like that. I’m like, Okay, come on, like, give me give me what I came for. So what I was saying.

Rosanna 8:09
Well, I mean, I think you can argue that about any, not that this is like a self help book. But anything that like has a claim. Like really, it’s like the point is almost on the cover. Yeah. Like, love everybody always like, right, like, that’s, that’s the point. And then, like, even the difficult people and even in a world full of setbacks, like that’s the point. That’s, that’s really the whole point of the book. And so –

Jordan 8:30
Well right, but we also know that already already agree with that. So now teach me how.

Rosanna 8:35
So you are looking more for teacher how teachable, teachable moment?

Jordan 8:38
Yeah. So let me get to the good stuff, though. Because I would say ultimately, this, this is a worthwhile read. And I would say particularly in the last third, so my my takeaways kind of centered around this idea that he is a very, I would say, like I say, has a very creative approach to his love. And throughout the stories that he shares, which I did find to be the most valuable, that it didn’t seem like he loved any individual in his life the same way. And, to, to me like that, that stands out because to love and this is what this book taught me. There’s like a almost a disregard for your own self and for your preferences or conveniences to varying extents, and that’s probably where I struggle the most. And you know, this too, like I very easily like get into my own world. It’s like I have my set of responsibilities, my goals, and that even though I I desire to be more loving, more giving like my road block, is is myself like feeling like I want I want everything to be taken care of. I want everything to be at peace, which means I’ve got to ignore x, y, and z, so that I can focus on what my priority is right now. And so just kind of see in his example that there are ways to kind of disregard your own preference for the sake of giving something to somebody else who needs it.

Rosanna 10:16
Well, and I think part of that point that he’s trying to make is you’re right, like we, we have all of our own plans and intentions and things that we need to accomplish. And so when we’re so focused on those, we’re kind of like, you’re like, our eyes are down and, and we’re not looking around. And so I think in each of the stories that he tells, especially the ones that are more specifically about him, and how he reacts, because he has this amazing guy, but like, he’ll even call himself out. Like, I’m, like, upset in this situation, I’m impatient, I would rather not be here, what I want to do is grumble and like, he kind of like reminds himself, like, let me think of somebody else before I’m thinking of myself, even if it’s gonna put me out. And it’s like, he’s learning the lesson, like along with us. And so it’s like, kind of like that great reminder of like, if we’re always just so focused on ourselves, we’re missing the point and the opportunity of changing the world.

Jordan 11:08
Right. Yeah.

Rosanna 11:10
And, and it’s not through some like big, crazy interaction. It’s through like, patience and kindness, eye contact, even just a heartfelt comment. Like, none of these things are hard. But they have the ability to change the lives of people directly around him, whether they’re a friend or a stranger.

Jordan 11:33
Yeah. And you you can do big things. And maybe that’s what we think of him or like, why would it be more loving, which means I need to, like do something noteworthy.

Rosanna 11:40
I need to donate $20,000 to a nonprofit to show love.

Jordan 11:45
Right. Sometimes that’s a misconception I’ve had. So it’s really, so what you’re saying is that it’s one interaction at a time. Yeah, and those interactions are often spontaneous. And they’re not, they’re not pre planned.

Rosanna 11:58
No, and they’re, and they are like, the point that you were making, that I want to come back to is that it’s not the same for everybody. And just because it’s not the same doesn’t mean it’s not equal. Like the the heart of the matter is, is that it’s love. And love can be displayed, shown proven in a variety of ways. So when we get hung up on this person’s display, or, or the way that they’re loving one person isn’t the same way that they love me, therefore, it must be greater in one context or another. And that’s not it. It’s where where is your heart?

Jordan 12:33
It’s not I love you this many dollars worth?

Rosanna 12:35
It’s not I love you this many dollars worth or I spent more time with you or I, you know, I did this for you. And now it’s just you do it as it comes up as as it like pulls at your heart or as you know what somebody needs. And so in different times of your life in different parts of your life, it those those come up in different ways.

Jordan 12:55
So here’s another thing that stood out to me as well, too. And this becomes more evident, like I said, in the last third of the book, where the chapters, there’s multiple chapters that all string together this this longer narrative that centers on his work in Uganda. So he is he kind of describes himself, he is a lawyer. And he’s a pretty good one. And he even says that, and there’s a lot he like, he has a lot of like appropriate, like, lawyerly self deprecating kinds of jokes, too. But he’s like, you know, I’m pretty good at law practice. So when I was in this circumstance in Uganda, I was looking for how I could apply my savviness with that to some circumstance that needed that. And you think like what he ends up doing, it seems pretty remarkable. But this is where I started thinking about myself, I don’t need to do what he did, obviously. And probably even his level of savviness in his field is probably bigger than your average professional’s level of proficiency in their field. I mean, he just seems like he’s doing some pretty big stuff. But it’s like, Alright, I’m not him. But I am an educator. And I’m a pretty darn good one. So how can I use what I have for someone else’s gain? Instead of just like, you know, going to work punching the clock and coming home? Are there circumstances either within the area that I’m already in, or even beyond that, where I can walk in and say, Alright, like, I, I can’t do what Person A or Person B, person C is doing. But I can teach, is there a place that I could apply that that would be a gift that would be loving that would be, you know, something beyond my own self gain.

Rosanna 14:44
I love that that was kind of one of my takeaways and one of the subtitles of the chapters was we aren’t held back by what we don’t have, but by what we don’t use. And so it’s that notion of not getting caught up with Okay, I don’t have an airplane like this guy where I can fly somewhere and save the day. or whatnot, but even your own, you know, recognition, I work in a school with hundreds of students a year. What can I use? What in what ways am I talented? In what way can I show love in that circumstance? That is, it’s not like what Rosanna does or it’s not like what this person does, but how do I use my own talents and what I do have? You know, a lot of times we use excuses for why we can’t do something, you know, I don’t have enough time, I don’t have enough money. I don’t have enough resources or knowledge about this, that or the other thing, so therefore, I can’t do any of those things. So then we just get nothing. Yeah. So then we do nothing. But, you know, maybe your only talent is baking cookies, right? Maybe that’s your only talent in the world. So how can you utilize that, you know, and you could use that talent, or that gift and and you could love people through that, that love? Well, but you know that you’re begging for your local fire department or police department or they’re yours, you know, doing a bake sale and raising funds to donate to like, there are ways you can use what you have to the love to love the people around you.

Jordan 16:05
Yeah. And I think maybe sometimes we hide behind those excuses, or behind the, the verbal gesture, like we could say, like, Oh, I love you, I care about you. But it really, it. It goes beyond words if we’re really being intentional with our love. And like I said, like, this is why I want to read this and things like it is because I feel like that is definitely where I live is what like I I have my heart in a place where I genuinely love people. But I have to if I were being honest, I would also say I feel somewhat inconvenienced by the notion of giving of my time or energy to someone other than who I’ve currently agreed to give it to.

Rosanna 16:53
Well, I think that’s something you have to work on.

Jordan 16:55
Right. But I can’t be the only one. And I feel like we have these hang ups or these excuses, that keep us from really, like just overflowing with love in a way that then is affecting other people around us.

Rosanna 17:10
Well, so then I think the bigger question for all of us, whether you’ve read this book or not, is how is your life working for the people around you? Okay, like, people will know who we are, by, by what we do, and not who we pretend to be. So you know, whatever our social media squares are, what stories we share, you know, all the highlights. You know, that’s, that’s one way people see you, but people will know who you are based on how you make them feel and what you do. And it’s not necessarily what you do for them. But what what they see you do. So what are we actually doing? You know, that’s that’s just a good question. Your life is not just about you. It’s about the people around you. Are they getting better because of your influence in their life? And it’ll be different for everybody else.

Jordan 17:56
That’s a challenging question.

Rosanna 17:58
Yeah. I think one of the things this book brought up to is to check your blind spots? Because we all have what’s a blind spot? Well think about when you’re backing out of the car, right? Where do you have to check? Your blind spot is one spot that you cannot see, right? Or it’s there, but you kind of dismiss it you kind of like, look around it. Right?

Jordan 18:23
I know what a blind spot is, but what do you what do you mean by check your blind spots?

Rosanna 18:26
Like, are we letting our biases keep us from loving certain people? So like in our own lives, whether it’s people we know, or we don’t know, are we letting biases that we hang on to keep us from loving certain people? Because they’re different from us? Or because they’re not in our circles? And so I think that’s something that we really have to look at.

Jordan 18:45
Yeah. You know, I mean, one of my favorite little stories that he shares in the book is when he, of course, he he gives his number out in his previous book, and in this one, and then it sells millions of copies. So he’s just like constantly getting phone calls. He says, See, he relatively frequently gets calls from prisons. And those calls, cost money to accept, but he always accepts it. And then there’s always somebody interesting on the other end. And for me, that is one great example of someone who’s different than you. And someone who is I would say, like, relatively easy to dismiss, in the sense of like, well, you’re impressed, you must have done something wrong, like I I don’t normally associate with people who have done something to the extent that they’ve been in prison for it. And he’s like, not like I do my best to like, just accept them with open arms. Sometimes I listen to them, sometimes there’s something I can do to help them out. And I think that’s, that’s one of multiple stories that he shares along those lines and kind of reminds me to think about like, are there I would say, like, there are people who we just like, perceive as different and so we feel like that that medium of understanding one another or our ability to meet their needs, or even just our own, like, concern for our safety in a sense, like all those kind of become factors that we allow probably more than they need to, to be barriers to getting to know someone and seeing to what extent we can do something of love towards them.

Rosanna 20:20
Well, and then playing off of that, check your blind spots, like we’ve all heard the phrase like going in blind, right? Like, we don’t really know what we’re getting ourselves into. But we shouldn’t let that keep us from trying or doing something. And I think that’s the same way like, okay, you and I have committed to being more generous this year, and you know, donating to charities each month. Okay. So we have a plan for that. But you can’t always plan for everything. And so it doesn’t, we need to kind of think about and maybe even for you, this is good. Like, no matter what situation you’re in, you’re not going to know, like, what what’s going to come? So it’s it’s looking for those opportunities, and not really knowing what the answer or the solution or what you’re gonna say or do is, but it’s our are we, are we okay with going in blind, and not not knowing what’s coming? And just just figuring it out on the fly?

Jordan 21:10
Yeah, usually no. So that is another nice challenge. And I’d love to by the end of theyear – I mean, this is at the end of February now – so I’d love to, by the end of 2021, be able to have some stories that have our own that, like if we were to write a similar book, like we could start filling it with some stories that we would then hopefully use as some inspiration to ourselves and to anyone else that were able to share that story with us to say like, this is what we learned, this is how we grew. This is what we moved into.

Rosanna 21:40
Okay, do you have some other takeaways? I think I have one last one. But is there something else from the book that, that you were also compelled by or got you to think about something in a new way?

Jordan 21:52
They’re just interesting. Like, I mean, he mentioned for each of his kids 10th birthdays, he takes them on some sort of an adventure that they choose. I was thinking like, Oh, you know, like Chucky cheese. No, his one son chooses Mount Kilimanjaro. And I’ve just just impressed by, even with his own family, the extent to which there’s, I would say, this degree of extravagance, to the amount of attention that he tries to give to them. So and again, it’s a book like, you know, he can kind of present this in whatever way he wants to. But that makes me think like, Alright, like, within the midst of this, as we’re giving to others, we we can’t lose sight of those closest to us as well. And so it he mentioned this as well, I think sometimes we are interested in sort of the I would say like the that far off person, like someone across the world who we feel like needs our charity. And we just I think we should have an interest in that, but at the expense of having a blindness to the very people who are like literally right in front of us. And so for me, like I really want to focus on loving you and loving the kids in kind of this new way that we’re talking about. And then expand that to like the people who are literally on my street, the people who am literally interacting with because if I can’t love them, or I choose to overlook them for the sake of taking up some righteous cause across the world, then I feel like it’d be a little disingenuous.

Rosanna 23:24
I mean, yeah, there are plenty of opportunities to love people, right where you live, that you don’t have to go far to make a change to make an impact to make a wave, the wave does not have to be overseas. And it can be because maybe you have a passion or a calling right to a certain place.

Jordan 23:40
I’m not going to dismiss that. But I don’t want it to be at the expense of then I feel like it’s a little hypocritical if I go I’m such this great person, I’m this giver of love. Yet the very people in my life are lacking what I seem to so abundantly give to someone else.

Rosanna 23:56
Okay, well, that’s a good challenge that your love can be local. So I think my last takeaway is that, and I had started to mention this earlier is that love always multiplies itself. Are we leaving people places things better than how we found them? Like, when was the last time you left a person place or thing better than how you found it? And so looking for those opportunities to show love and that that’s a way to show love? And are we only or are we only focused on ourselves?

Jordan 24:25
Yeah, well, I think what he meant by that, too, was also like not not being the sole actor in like a motion of love, but like bringing other people around that particular action or that cause so that you can kind of replicate that behavior as well.

Rosanna 24:46
Right? I was talking about this with a friend. And you know, she was talking about kind of like this ripple effect. It’s like the that the way I am inspired her to do something and now she’s doing something similar for someone else. And she said, wouldn’t it be a beautiful thing, if years from now, you know, there’s this ripple continues that you love someone in a certain way, or teach them something that they’re kind of transformed by, and that they use to help somebody else. And then that person uses that to help somebody else. And then it continues to trickle. And I’ll never know what what that certain thing was and what I did for them and what meant so much, but they become transformed by it. And then there’s hundreds of people who are somehow transformed by one action by one person that then continues.

Jordan 25:38
So if we all kind of behave in that manner, in that openness of love, then really, the world literally becomes a better place.

Rosanna 25:47
There you go.

Jordan 25:50
So I think, I think next season, I’ll choose the book.

Rosanna 25:56
You know, I just you are, it’s funny, because you are a very nice person you do change lives on a daily, weekly, monthly yearly basis for the impact you have in the school that you work in. You’re always looking to be better. But your degree in English and literature and dissecting books, sometimes you’re just a harsh critic, and you’re like this with movies, too.

Jordan 26:22
I’m a bad movie-watching partner.

Rosanna 26:24
you can’t just read a feel good book and just be okay with it, even if it’s not totally realistic, or if you don’t totally agree.

Jordan 26:31
Well, I would say it was a light read in some parts a little lighter than I bargained for. But it’s a net positive. So if you haven’t read this yet, or are looking for just I would say like a relatively like quick, inspirational read this, this book will certainly do the job.

Rosanna 26:49
Just check your blind spots. Jordan, check your blind spots and biases.

Jordan 26:52
You better watch your blind spots, too. All right. Well, thanks for joining us for this book discussion today. And this conversation wraps up our four podcasts centered around love month.

Rosanna 27:06
Yeah, but there’s plenty of love left in season three. So continue to watch on social media and see what’s coming up. And you know, I did text Bob Goff because he does put his number here at the back of the book. But you know, we’ll let you know. Maybe we’ll, we’ll get him on the show. We’ll see.

Jordan 27:21
I think so. So certainly, I think just looking at love month, the the idea of love is something that we we focused on during this month. But I see it is really just a catalyst. Now. We’ve, it’s one thing to talk about it. And it’s one thing to share our thoughts and explore things, but it’s another thing to do. And so we’re kind of teeing off this year on this high note. And I’m interested in what the rest of the year will look like with this is kind of our centerpiece for how we’re starting off 2021. And, of course, for all of you listeners, we hope that these this conversation as well as of the other ones that you’ve been listening to have been equally thought provoking, and we’ll certainly look forward to hearing some of the stories and experiences that you’ll have this year as well.

Rosanna 28:04
Have a great day. We’ll see you next week.

Jordan 28:06
Love everybody. Always. Thanks, everybody.