Season 2, Episode 3: Considering Minimalism – Interview with Positive Psychologist Kasey Lloyd

Rosanna 0:15
Welcome to season two, Episode Three of the relentless pursuit podcasts. This one’s titled considering minimalism. So in addition to talking about carpool and back to school and all of the other things that parents talk about one of the ideas that you and I continue to examine and kind of explore is our relationship to objects.

Jordan 0:37
So many objects,

Rosanna 0:38
So many objects, so little time. Um, I think one of the ways that I defined you as I wrote your bio for our webpage, was that I called you a minimalist.

Jordan 0:49
right, which I thought was a bit erroneous, maybe a bit exaggerated, like I, I don’t feel attached to objects, but I think in my mind, minimalist is something that is a little bit more extreme.

Rosanna 1:02
So you’re thinking of minimalist as like someone who has like a tiny house like 400 square feet and has one shirt and one pair of pants. So I did. That’s how I characterized you. Because you’re not a things and stuff person. You don’t like to accumulate things. You don’t attach, like value to objects. You’re not like the guy who wants a fancy car, or expensive watches or that like those things just don’t hold value for you.

Jordan 1:27
Well, I wouldn’t mind having those things either. But I feel like we, I think even despite that, that we do have so many objects, and I do feel like that it preoccupies our time and attention, even though I think there’s a lot of practicality and necessity to those. So it’s worth examining, like how many we have, how many is worthwhile, what is the purpose and what’s our relationship to those things?

Rosanna 1:52
Okay. Well in America, there’s this belief that kind of permeates our culture. And that belief is that material possessions improve an individual’s personal and social well being. And I think that’s, you know, like if you think about the American dream, right like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, a lot of people would say that the pursuit of happiness is the pursuit of obtaining more things. So, contrary to this belief, multiple studies show that materialists and we’ll define those as people who excessively are concerned with material possessions have lower social and personal well being.

Jordan 2:31
So it’s the opposite.

Rosanna 2:32
Correct. So sometimes the more stuff you have it kind of lowers your social and personal well being.

Jordan 2:38
So it doesn’t even not make you happier. It actually makes you feel worse.

Rosanna 2:43
Correct. So when I was thinking about that, and I was thinking about minimalism and materialism all I could think of was the movie Fight Club. And it’s not like that’s one of my favorite movie right so far we’ve quoted what like the Godfather and Fight Club, but –

Jordan 2:56
All these modern philosophers sorry, let’s let’s hear it from a philosopher Tyler Durden.

Rosanna 3:00
There you go. Tyler Durden. “Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy crap we don’t need. We are consumers. We’re the byproduct of a lifestyle obsessions, the things that we own end up owning you.”

Jordan 3:15
I like it when he says, “You are not your kahke pants.”

Rosanna 3:18
Yeah, you are not your white shirt, right? If materialists have lower social and personal well being, what’s the solution to finding more balance, more happiness, more contentment, and better overall well being. Some are saying that it’s the notion of minimalism. So let’s take a look at what that means. You might have heard the term before and you’re not sure what it is. Minimalism is the notion of living with less for the sake of your mental and physical well being. Experts say that living with less helps people be free of financial worry, get rid of clutter that does not add value to your life, and allows people to focus more on experiences rather than objects.

Jordan 3:58
And we had the opportunity to talk to an expert about minimalism and kind of how that, just exploring that, that concept with her. And so in today’s episode, we’re going to present you in a few moments with an interview with a conversation that we had with Kasey Lloyd, who just want to tell you a little bit more about. Kasey Lloyd is positive psychologist and coach who’s worked with the young, the old and everyone in between. Her various professional roles have included psychologist, school counselor, group therapist and caseworker. Kasey hails from Queensland, Australia. She’s a member of the Australian Psychological Society and iscredited coach with Growth Coaching International. She received her bachelor’s from James Cook University and a Master of Science and applied positive psychology and coaching psychology from the University of East London. And she works in partnership with multiple organizations facilitating coaching, consulting and workshops with schools and other businesses and institutions. And Kasey has done a great deal of research and most recently has published some of this original research about the topic of minimalism in the International Journal of Applied Positive Psychology. So we enjoyed our conversation that we had with her. And I feel like I’ve only learned a lot from her but she helped us just understand and I think articulate a little bit more about just how we should think about our own, like you said, mental and physical well being and how that intersects with for better or worse with the objects in our lives.

Rosanna 5:36
Yeah, it was interesting to talk to her about materialism, minimalism and overall well being. It’s not really focusing on happiness, but well being what’s best for our mental, mental and physical health.

Jordan 5:49
Right. So in this interview, we hope you enjoy you’ll hear us ask her a bunch of questions and to stick around afterwards for some of the takeaways that Rosanna and I had from that conversation.

Welcome to the show Kasey. It’s nice to have you here with us on the relentless pursuit podcast.

Kasey 6:07
Thanks for having me.

Jordan 6:08
We wanted to just to kick off and ask you to tell us a little bit about positive psychology and how that led you to begin taking a look at minimalism.

Kasey 6:20
Okay, so I guess the best way to describe positive psychology is to think about what we know about traditional psychology. So traditional psychology looks at fixing what’s broken, I guess is the is the layman’s way of describing it. So we go to a psychologist when we’re anxious or depressed or struggling. And what positive psychology is, is it’s more of a, I see it more as a proactive rather than a reactive approach. So it can be used in conjunction with traditional psychology therapies, and it can assist with mental health issues and the like. But what it actually does, I think most importantly, is it buffers against mental illness. So positive psychology is about it’s the scientific study of optimal human functioning, and what makes life worth living. So rather than looking at kind of deficits and problems, it looks at strengths and potential and that kind of thing. So, yeah, it’s some it’s relatively it’s a relatively new field in psychology. That’s about 20 years old now. Um, and, yeah, it’s just I think when I came across it, I was working as a school counselor and I was doing I got to do a coaching accreditation program and I came across positive psychology during that and I was just like, this is the, this is the piece of the puzzle that’s missing that, you know, there’s so many people that don’t fit traditional mental health diagnoses like they don’t have depression, they don’t have anxiety, but they’re not exactly living their best life. So they’re they’re functioning they’re getting through the day, but they’re not flourishing. So that’s where positive psychology instead of, and God, I could talk about this all day. But if you look at the so called, like, well being on a continuum where zero is functioning, you know, minus 10 is severely depressed and 10 is like living your ultimate best life ever. Traditional psychology kind of gets you from, you know, down this end of the scale from minus five to zero, one, or two, whereas positive psychology wants to take you from there all the way up to eight, nine or 10. So, does that answer the question with that?

Rosanna 8:48
That’s great. One of the reasons we started the podcast, it was part of it was to do something together, but we wanted to do something positive that made a difference and really the kind of the tagline for our podcast is taking life off autopilot and relentlessly pursuing a life worth living together. So talking about this like life worth living, what does that mean? What does that mean? What does that look like? And how do we take like, good to great and that’s really what like kind of excites us and so you know, that’s those are the topics we’re looking at it like yeah, life is life is good and life is okay but maybe the prescribed narrative for people isn’t making them fulfilled and so how can we talk about things that get people to kind of think about their life their intentionality with what they’re doing and move them from good to great?

Kasey 9:35
Positive psychology? Yeah. You’ll go down a rabbit hole later looking at positive psychology websites and books and research. Yeah, absolutely. That’s what it is.

Jordan 9:48
This is a bit of an aside like that reminds me of like, we get a lot of advertisements for like coaching. Like life coaches are sometimes they’re specific to certain industries or niches like a real estate coach, like how would you equate positive psychology to like the coaching industry?

Kasey 10:07
So the way we were so my, the master’s degree that I did, and so after I did this coaching accreditation program, I went back to my school principal and I said, just so you know, I’m going to be leaving my job at some point because you sent me on this program that I’m doing a Masters of Science in applied positive psychology and coaching psychology at the University of East London. So the way we speak about positive psychology and coaching is that positive psychology is the theory. And it’s the it’s the research and coaching is the application. So without coaching, you may not get the benefit of positive psychology, I guess. I mean, you could do it, obviously. on your own, but a coach is somebody who’s going to help you understand and apply the research. Yeah. So there’s there’s a field called positive psychology coaching, which is about kind of melding the two of them together.

Jordan 11:16
So how did you kind of know you’ve examined a lot of areas related to positive psychology? How was minimalism one of the things that you ended up crossing paths with?

Kasey 11:30
It’s an interesting one. I think it’s, I think it’s an interesting story. So we had to come up with a dissertation topic and we could it you know, you could choose whatever you wanted. It just had to be related to well being and, you know, positive psychology and I was really struggling. I’ve got a lot of interest areas. I’m interested in so many different things. And I was really I wanted to come up with some research that I really enjoyed. And that I guess the other thing that I wanted it to be something a little bit new and fresh, I didn’t want to do something that had kind of been done before but doing it in a different way. And I wanted it to be something that I might like to use later in, in my work. And I was sitting, I remember, I was sitting on my bed, putting my boots on in London ready to go to a lecture and I looked over at my, you know, my side table, my bureau and I had this accumulation I only been in London for maybe no more than three months. And I had all of this stuff kind of accumulated on the top of my dresser and I thought, gosh, how am I accumulated that much stuff already? Like how can I hairspray when do I ever use hairspray? Why do I have that, you know? And I was like, Ah, that could be a good topic. Minimalism of all there’ll be plenty of research on that already. Because you know, so many people, so many podcasts that pick you know, it’s such a popular topic. And I started looking. And there was really not a lot of research. And so I thought, well, this is it. This is what I’ll do. I’ll I’ll do some grounded theory research about does minimalism improve wellbeing? And if you know what, what, what are we looking at here? Why are the reasons that it might improve our well being? So that’s how I came up with the idea, basically, because I had accumulated a lot of crap since arriving in London.

Jordan 13:36
But I think that’s where we were headed to like is we look around and I, you know, I don’t feel like we have an overabundance of possessions, but we got a lot of stuff. And so I think at least it’s good to at least raise the question and examine, like, what is our relationship to all these possessions that we have, especially in the modern era where there’s so much available for so cheap and So accessible. You know, like the running joke, especially since we’ve been at home for so long is all of the Amazon rays and mail deliveries that are piling up outside of people’s houses. And it’s is kind of funny to joke about that. But I think it raises more serious question of like, just how do we, how do we navigate the world of stuff? Is it to what extent we want to appropriately use the things around us without it taking on? You know, something that can becomes a hindrance to our well being to the life that we really envisioned for ourselves?

Kasey 14:36
Yeah. And I think when I started looking into the research, like I said, there wasn’t a lot around minimalism or low consumption lifestyles. There’s, there’s a little bit there and it’s, but a lot of it’s anecdotal. And a lot of the few studies that there are, you know, this is There’s some meaningful links. But like I said, there’s not a great deal. But there is a lot of research around materialism. And so materialism is this idea that, you know, possessions are the central focus of the life and it’s the it’s the primary means of life satisfaction, you know, I’ve got my stuff, I’ve got my house, I’ve got my, my possessions, you know, even if you don’t think like that, it’s this idea. And it is the great, I guess the great American dream is to the great Australian dream. Have your house, your car, your boat, maybe. So, and they the research in materialism consistently shows that there is a negative relationship between materialism and life satisfaction. So even though we think that these things make us happy, they just don’t. And so I think that’s probably something that yeah, that we don’t we just don’t think about so this is idea that and lots of reasons why that might be the case. So far. Like, I’m having, I guess, negative self appraisals and comparing yourself to other people. So the idea of keeping up with the Joneses, or the Kardashians, I guess. And I think there’s this, I don’t want to get too theoretical, but there’s a theory ready to go with that yet. self determination theory where we basically, we, we want to satisfy these three psychological needs, which are autonomy, competence, and relatedness. And if we don’t meet those needs, or if materialists don’t meet those needs, they tend to compensate with possessions. And but then what happens is, they’re still not satisfied. They’re still not happy. So they continually, I guess, have to purchase more to feel a sense of joy because when you do purchase something Did you have that initial buzz and that initial Look, I’ve got the shiny new object. But it’s short lived. That’s what the research says it is shortly. So

Jordan 17:09
yeah, I like that word for the buzz. Because that’s what we were talking about, too. Because we when we think of happiness, and it’s like, well, we know when I buy this, it makes me happy. But I think we misunderstand the term or like maybe better terms like his well being or fulfillment, right? Right. It makes you happy for a moment, but it does not give you lasting joy,

Rosanna 17:30
or purpose or fulfillment.

Jordan 17:32
Yeah. So why do we gravitate so easily towards objects then?

Kasey 17:38
Oh, that’s a good question.

Jordan 17:41
Is it just part of the human psyche to see something and want it so I think oh, I mean, my feeling is there’s a lot of comparison like you. I mean, if you were seeing someone who had the shiny new object, and like next day, we’re gonna get ours.

Kasey 17:54
Yeah, I think that’s that’s definitely part of it. I think. There’s your Um, that we need these things. I need a new guitar. Okay, sorry, I was looking, you know, I need to be able to carry my guitar more easily because the one I’ve got quite cumbersome and it’s difficult to kind of manage and get down this day. So I should get a traveling like a soft case it’s going to be easier. But, you know, that’s another thing that I need. Do I actually need it? You know, what is there? Is there a real clear defined purpose for it? Or is it just going to make my life a little bit easier? So I guess there is that something’s off, um, do make our lives easier. But I guess it’s about thinking. Do we want an easy life? I don’t know.

Unknown Speaker 18:48
Yeah, well,

Rosanna 18:49
that’s something that we found as we’ve gotten older to where like, we’re questioning like, Oh, I want that. And so sometimes I’ll put it on like a list like on my phone or on a piece of paper like okay, like my birthday. Coming up, and I’ll look at this list. And I’ll actually think about, like, do it. Do I actually want that? Do I need that? Like is, is this many dollars worth? Like it is? Is it? Is it meaningful enough to buy this object? And am I going to get a cheap thrill out of it? Right? Looking at it real quick and being happy about it? Or like, does this serve a function or a purpose? And I don’t think that I was one, you know, 10 years ago to think about that. It was like, Oh, I kind of want that I have the money, I’ll buy it. And I think that it’s not until you’re a little bit older, and maybe like getting rid of those things that you thought you want it that you realize, maybe I need to start thinking about if I really need or want those things.

Jordan 19:38
It almost seems like we need to like ask I guess yourself or distinguish between a need and a want. And then at least if we understand that difference, then we say what I want at will, how badly do I want it and picture the long term involvement of that item with our life.

Rosanna 19:56
So how would you define if there’s Is there a definition for like minimalist, minimal And what is the what is the definition?

Kasey 20:03
If I had to define mental minimalism, I think I define it in my research as this conscious decision to live with your possessions. Okay? And that’s it. That’s my minimalist minimalism definition. Yeah, there are a lot of extreme minimalist things so people who are you know, sleeping on a sleeping mat on the floor and they have their free black t shirts and you know, one bar of soap that washes their hair, face body clothes, car, you know, that kind of thing. Um, but I think my argument and I guess that is on you know, in some of the the writings about minimalism is that it’s more about creating and sustaining your own definition of minimalism. So What is minimalism for you? And, you know, I think it’s tricky because there are a lot of bloggers and that out there who, you know, people that I’ve spoken to have kind of said, Oh, I don’t really like. So and so they they seem so pretentious. And, you know, I can’t possibly live up to that standard of minimalism. I’m like, that’s totally the, you know, the wrong way of looking at it. And it shouldn’t be making us feel like we try. You know, it’s almost like materialism. Again, we’re trying to keep up with other people. You know, minimalism shouldn’t be about trying to be a better minimalist than so and so. It should be about, you know, what is it for you? And I think that’s, that’s how I would like people to define it, you know, to think about what does it mean for me and it might mean that you know, when I go shopping, I’m going to really think about what I’ve already got in my wardrobe for you Example and think about really consciously think about what I’m buying and whether or not it’s going to, you know, go with what I have already or do I need to remove something to make room for it? Or am I going to shop and for quality rather than fast fashion and that kind of thing? So yeah, I think it’s very individual.

Jordan 22:19
That’s one of the things that we were wondering too, could be two people with two very different sets of quantities of possessions both no claim to be minimalist, and it seems like the answer would be yes. Because it really depends on their perspective towards what they have and maybe even what they had before they make this declaration about themselves.

Kasey 22:40
Definitely, definitely. And I think, and I remember one of the people I interviewed talked about having, she had like, seven pairs of the exact same shoe, um, you know, in her closet, and she said to me, I was like, you know, But for her, they were on sale. This is the type of shoe that she wears, and they will last her lifetime. She will, you know, she will use one set until until it falls apart. And then so it was like, Well, you know, that’s actually and she said compared to what she used to be like she would have had, you know, however many pairs times, you know, whatever so yeah, it It definitely. I think it’s definitely depends on on you and your own definition. It’s interesting, too. You mentioned about making the declaration about, you know, being a minimalist, because there’s definitely people who identify as you know, I’m a minimalist, but I did find when I was reaching out for participants for my research, people would reply and they would say, Oh, look, I don’t really like I wouldn’t say I’m a minimalist, but this is my you know, experience and yeah, I think it’s interesting that I guess it’s kind of like I know I don’t know what it’s like in the States. But here we say you’re not really a vegan unless you tell everybody about it or you’re not a crossfitter unless you tell everyone about it. So, I think, you know, some, I think you can view minimalism. Some people view minimalism like that. But yeah, there’s definitely people who are living with less. And that that wouldn’t consider wouldn’t, you know, give themselves a label as such.

Rosanna 24:33
Do you? Have you noticed any general generational differences when it comes to minimalists? I just think of like our parents generation versus us were versus who were in our late 30s. So yeah, I would even say like people know, younger, like new adults as well, you know, 18 Yeah, yeah, like 18 to 30 and then kind of like 30s and 40s, and even people like 50s 60s and 70s. Do you see a difference in their relationship to possessions Just based on like the time and the way in which they were raised impacting that.

Kasey 25:06
I haven’t I haven’t looked into it and, you know, scientifically so it’s not this isn’t this is just more anecdotal. And that even speaking to like participants and I and other people in the research side of the research sorry, there is definitely the older generation seems to keep stuff and want their children to then keep this stuff as well. So, um, we’ve noticed

Jordan 25:41
that especially my sorry, mom, if you’re listening

Kasey 25:47
a lot. Yeah, a lot of my participants had this crippling fear of what’s going to happen when their parents die and they have to accumulate all of this stuff. So they were they were some of them. Some of them were really, really, it caused a lot of stress. For them thinking about I’ve got to deal with that whole household when they die. And I just, there’s so much stuff in there. And I don’t want any of it. And I think I didn’t know, there’s this idea that I feel like the old generation, you have things like, you know, the full, full case full of crystal and things like that, that the younger generations are just not really interested in. We’re not we’re not using it as much. And we don’t want to just kind of save it for a special occasion. Like it’s, it’s, we would rather buy stuff that we would use now. So more function Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. But again, there is, um, I think, I don’t know if it’s, it’s, if it’s a generational thing, I know that little kids love their stuff, and they’ll collect stuff. I’m like rocks and pegs and pieces of paper and string. And the and it’s special to them and they’ll hold on to it. And you think what is all of this junk? It’s like a bit some

Jordan 27:14
sections here show collections. What else? Yeah.

Kasey 27:18
Yeah, absolutely. So I think those are probably discussions to have earlier rather than later with kids about stuff. So, um, you know, how important is this? And, you know, it’s nice to have a memory of, you know, your trip to the beach. You know, you can have memories without attaching them to things as well. And I think that’s why people keep a lot of stuff because they think oh, you know, but that reminds me of my trip to so and so. Oh, that reminds me of my wedding day or that reminds me of whatever but the thing didn’t not happen if you don’t have the material to remind you Have that

Jordan 28:00
Yeah, I think that’s one thing that was thinking about too was like that connection of objects to experiences or memories or to, you know, like, areas of one’s life. There’s a really interesting podcast by Malcolm Gladwell that I was listening to not too long ago, and he does two episodes, is mostly ranting about art museums. But he kind of gets into hoarders. And like various people who and he talks about that, like there’s a kind of emotional connection there’s there’s a story that they perceive that’s maybe more a little more heightened than the average person when it comes to objects. And they understand and connect their lives and their experiences to objects a little bit more. And then he goes back to like Ranch, my art museums collect more than they can ever show. This really fast thing I’ll afford you the link. Um, but you know, that’s one thing I was thinking about too, was like, Is it different for different people and I and you know, one of the quotes is like is minimalism for everybody? Like does everyone stands to gain from adopting some degree of a minimalist perspective? Or is it really going to help more people or some people more than others?

Kasey 29:17
I’ve thought about this beat.

And because I, you know, I, when I was doing my research, I was thinking everyone should be doing this. Absolutely. Everyone should be living with lesson. And I was wondering, you know what, um, yeah, thinking about particular friends and whether or not they would benefit from minimalism. I think there are definite benefits for the average person, no doubt. Um, I think you need to well, and this kind of came out a little bit in the research as well as that. You need to have some level of autonomy and choice choosing to live with your possessions. So you need to the benefit and probably only the present if you voluntarily and consciously choose to live that way. So people who are living with fewer possessions because they’re living in poverty or you know in a developing nation or something, they may not benefit from minimalism the way that that we would.

But that being said,

people in lower socio economic, you know, areas or developing nations, they are still subject to the same kind of consumer messages that we are. So, they will still see, you know, the, the the famous basketball player with the brand new, you know, Nikes or whatever, and they still bombarded with those messages. So, I think that there is benefit possibly to thinking about how The attitudes that then attitudes that minimalist have towards consumerism could possibly provide some some well being benefits to to those people. Because that’s not I mean, my research with everyone was middle middle class way Western. And yeah, they they saw very clear benefits to living with less but it was definitely a conscious choice for them.

Jordan 31:31
In your research you reference you reference how other people that you spoke with and have read about and other research like we’re talking about definitely like physical objects in a physical space, but that connected to the mental space that they seemed to experience along with those objects. Can you talk about the relationship between the physical and the mental when it comes to possessions?

Kasey 31:56
Yeah, definitely. Um, I think yesterday idea was that and your, your mental space, what what’s happening in your in your, in your physical space reflects what’s happening in your mental space and vice versa. So if you’re living in a cluttered chaotic home that that’s the cause and the result of kind of having a cluttered and chaotic mind if that makes sense. So the participants kind of said that minimalism provided the means to create space, both in their mental world and in their physical world. So, yeah, and this idea of mental energy as well. So they had fewer choices to make, for example, about what clothes they were going to wear that day. So they didn’t have to use the mental energy to, you know, to think about that kind of stuff in the morning. Yes, so it is really interesting the

menstrual cycle. And

physical space, I think the idea that making space for what matters is a bit of a catchphrase Mimosa Mimosa boettner. Um, and this was one of the things that didn’t pop up much in the research about that that I had looked at previously. So, yeah, I think there’s um there is a bit of a discussion about cluttering homes and in schools and how that can affect your performance and increase your stress because of the attention it takes away from you know what you’re doing so right now like you know, you wouldn’t believe the my desk at the moment. It’s not particularly minimalist currently, I’ve got kind of projects balanced all over the shop. So and but you know, I always know that if I want to get something done, I completely clear my desk. I have my laptop and whatever I’m working on, because I know that then my focus is there.

Unknown Speaker 34:00
Hmm,

Jordan 34:01
yeah, I’ve experienced that too. And just professionally, like, if I really wanted to focus on something, then getting rid of the the items, the more organized things are making sure that clutter is off my desk. I found that that’s harder digitally, though, because email inboxes are always bouncing. There’s always like tabs open on my screen, I have little files that are working on my desktop. And I found that that’s been just as much if not more, so like, I feel like cluttering some of the mental space. So I want to focus and I’m working on the very screen that a lot of this is going on at the same time. It’s difficult to parse through those.

Rosanna 34:42
Yeah, I find myself clearing my desktop where I’ve got like files just kind of saved when you don’t want to put them away and feeling like you’re like putting all of your clothes and your laundry away and hanging them up and making your bag. Yeah,

Kasey 34:53
kind of interesting. And How good does it feel when when it’s

Yeah,

Rosanna 34:59
great. To cross one thing off your list by taking care of it. I’m interested if you saw any connections with because you said you used to work in a school. And so you kind of understand probably kids to a pretty good degree, we have kids. And we were talking about, you know, as kids, they’re advertising bombarded with things in stuff by advertisers and by friends and what the latest trend is. And as parents, sometimes we recognize, like, they say they want this object or this thing because somebody else has it, or they think it’s going to make them happy. But knowing our kids and their likes and what they actually use, we sometimes try and dissuade them from putting certain items on their wish list or their birthday list. Oh, I forgot. Oh, yeah. But look, what we did get you this really great creative tool, you should really use it. Is that a good thing? Like we try and talk to our kids about that, like the comparison of these friends have these items and maybe the reasons why we don’t kind of leading them through the thinking of we’re intentional about what we’re doing. Choosing for you or even what you’re choosing for yourself, you know, is that a good thing to do? Or as children? Do we give them the freedom to make those choices and figure it out?

Kasey 36:09
No, I think it’s I think it’s a great thing to do. Um, I don’t have children, but I do work with them. So I i think i think it is really important for kids to be thinking about this stuff and to be thinking about where their stuff comes from. So um, I know at least one of my participants was talking about how she would wouldn’t think twice about buying what she would call a plastic piece of the dunk for her child if they wanted it. If they were somewhere and they were like, Mommy, I want this she wouldn’t even think twice about it. And since, you know, consciously making this decision to live with less, she now thinks, where did that come from? Where is it going and up more importantly, because this is not something that this child is going Treasure and keep forever. So I think it is really important to have those discussions with kids and for them to realize that real happiness does not come from these things. It comes from, you know, Christmas morning, for example, sitting around and opening the presence is more likely to be remembered by them than what they actually got. So, yeah, I think that there is research around experiences bringing far more joy and meaning to somebody’s life than possessions. So

Jordan 37:33
definitely, that’s what we wanted to get into as well is I mean, cuz that’s one thing that we’ve we’ve tried to do is make that shit like, especially with with like kids gifts, but more so just in we operate as a family like shifting, like completely away, but like within reason shifting away from purchases of items and trying to make memories and experiences. So is that I mean, our assumption with that is that like, we’ll cherish Have a memory and a unique experience a lot more than, you know, some item that we buy used a little bit to then eventually throw away. But are you saying like that? That is true? Like that’s going to pan out over time that the experiences are definitely the thing to pursue?

Kasey 38:16
Absolutely, absolutely. I even I mean, think back to your own childhood, without getting too deep, but, you know, what, what are the things that stand out? So for me, like, for me, memories of being on our boat with the family, we used to, you know, spend a lot of time on on an island and I you know, we had nothing we didn’t have we took a pack of cars when we went to the island that was our, you know, our only entertainment besides climbing rocks and snorkeling and, you know, playing on the beach. So, you know, when I think back to my childhood, what I remember is 100% experiences You know, with the exception of the time that my brothers bought me rollerblades when my parents wouldn’t, but again, yeah, yeah. Again, the, the memory of that is then that I used to go rollerblading with my older brother all the time. And so it was the experience of that, that I think probably made that the most memorable gift I’ve ever received.

Rosanna 39:22
Let’s not even if it’s about like not spending money or not buying objects, but you know, we’re talking about one of our son’s birthday is coming up and buying a basketball hoop for up front. And it’s an expensive gift that’s more expensive than you know a bunch of cheap plastic toys that he’ll get sick of. But the idea is that we would all be out front as a family around that who playing his friends would come over so it’s all about those things that are tied with it and it’s the object grants you access to the experience like a boat like a boat is not cheap, but the boat allowed for your family to be together to play cards and to have those experience.

Unknown Speaker 39:56
Absolutely Yeah, yeah.

Jordan 40:00
That’s, you know, one thing I’ve thought about too is I’ve texted Roseanne about this because, you know, when you have kids, they’re, you know, opening up gifts. And a lot of the time I feel like it’s, it’s more for the adults like to see that little jolt of excitement like, Oh, you bought me this, but I felt bad especially when they’re really little, like First of all, they’re more interested in the box than what’s inside of it. But then, you know, even if they they are excited to say like, Oh, it’s a truck. Then our next thing is to like take it away and put it to the side and say like, you cannot use this right now because you have X number of more gifts to open. And I always like that always made me cringe a little bit. Just because it’s I just don’t I just didn’t feel like it was what they wanted. Or the right thing to show that we’re just gonna you know, inundate them with with items right now. We have tried to get away from giving gifts to like ask family and friends like for big occasions, to buy the kids Or even for us, you know, when someone asks like, let’s let’s get access to an experience someplace that we can go or something that we can do, where memory could be made. And I have enjoyed that. We’ve also asked like, how much is money for like a college fund? That would be great, but not many takers on that. So I think there’s definitely something to be said something to be said about those experiences because I, I mean, I feel like like personally, those are the things he seems like we end up cherishing the memories and the values and connections that we make through them.

Kasey 41:33
Definitely, definitely. I think you kind of hit on an interesting point there about extended family. So and like I said, with the, you know, participants in my study did fear the what they were going to inherit, I guess, but there they also spoke a lot about struggling to explain this decision to you Their family and grandparents particularly wanting to continually give their child stuff that they didn’t want their child to have. Or, you know, pour more stuff onto them, like, oh, I’ve got this beautiful vase that you should have in your house and I don’t have vase in my house, but really struggling to kind of, you know, politely decline, those kind of things. So that is, I don’t, you know, minimalism does come with, I guess, you know, this dark side of, of possible, not disadvantages, but things to be to consider. And so there is this idea, you know, the idea of the taking on other people’s stuff. I know that a lot of the people that I spoke to really struggled with clutter. So, you know, clutter would make them physically, you know, anxious and down That was a really tricky thing for them. And it was another other thing.

Unknown Speaker 43:08
completely lost it.

Kasey 43:10
Oh, this

a lot of minimalists really struggle with making a quick decision about a purchase freeze. And not saying that they should make a quick decision, but they would painstakingly research all of their options before they would make a decision. And that can be stressful as well. So say if something like a laptop they’ve got to buy, they would be really, you know, really researching every last kind of possible combination of things.

Jordan 43:48
And we’re reading that in your paper that Yeah, I could totally see that. It’s like when you’re at a restaurant and you have a great menu, but you can only get one item. You can spend a lot of time Like looking through that, and it’s that that whole, I think the Paradox of Choice of No, you think more choices would began here, but it’s totally stressful, especially if you’re going to try to limit yourself. Absolutely, yeah. So let’s talk about like consuming. So let’s say we’re at the store. And not that we’ve been to many stores lately. But when we do go with our masks on and we’re distance from everybody, or more likely, like on Amazon or online shopping somewhere nowadays, but we’re considering a purchase what, what kind of thought process would go into a consumer decision for someone who is trying to be more minimalistic.

Kasey 44:50
I would say, Do I need this festival? Do I have something that already does? This is enough question because I feel like that’s something that we we, we do a lot, we will buy things that, that we’ve already got something that will do the same thing. For me and important thing is where will where will this end up? So

Jordan 45:22
you mean like you would end up in the garden away? Yeah.

Kasey 45:25
Yeah, yep, would end up in the garbage.

Um, something like, looked it up, bam. 85% of our clothes end up in landfill. So in the US, it’s something like 25 billion tons per year of textile waste. Like, that’s a lot of stuff.

Jordan 45:45
Right side question. So let’s say someone had a hole in one of his socks. I’m now in 99% of the sock is still pretty good.

Rosanna 46:00
Big 90% of the sock is still good.

Kasey 46:05
Also, this isn’t a hypothetical.

Jordan 46:08
Many, many discussion

Rosanna 46:09
we’ve talked about, like he’s like, Well, most of it still works. I said, right, but there’s nothing wrong with replacing something that’s broken or unusable.

Jordan 46:17
It’s, you know, maybe, but that’s, that’s one of the discussions that we face. And this is where

Kasey 46:23
your own definition of minimalism i think is important. So I have I know people who would patch this up, and I know other people who would say that talk is done or repurpose it into a sock puppet puppet or

so that’s it is

an interesting thing that popped up about the idea that being a minimalist makes you feel more competent because you’re doing you doing things you are repurposing, and fixing and Trying to make the most out of items that you do have before getting rid of them. So that gives you kind of a boost of Oh, you know, I managed to fix this way, you know, last year, I would have just thrown it out. So, there’s that idea as well.

Rosanna 47:13
Have you heard this idea of people doing like a no buy year? Hmm. So like in a life of abundance, it’s a notion of doing with what you have. So like, you know, you wouldn’t buy groceries and you would buy toilet paper things that you run out over you consume, but saying, like making that conscious decision, I’m not going to buy clothes, unless for some reason they no longer fit or there’s a hole or something and sticking to like what the necessities truly are. Hmm. And what do you think of that?

Kasey 47:40
I think it’s I bow down to these people. I think that’s an incredible experiment. And I’ve not done it. I think I should, to be honest, I think it’s something that I would I would be really interested in and I mean, even he, he so I think That I tend to spend my money on when I, you know, I was getting my tax ready yesterday, and I’m looking at kind of the resources and the things that I’ve purchased over the past year. And I added up and I’m like, holy Dooley, like, that’s a lot of, you know, reference books and, you know, things like that. So, yeah, I think it’s, it’s really I think it’s, I think what the power comes down to, I think in the probably the first you know, three to six months would be when you really realize how much stuff you buy that you don’t need. So you know, even just that conscious kind of, you know, you would you would be in a store and you and you would be grocery shopping and be like oh, I might just grab that. Oh, no, hang on. I can’t I can’t actually purchase that. Wow. And I think you would do that a lot before you realize I I make more unnecessary purchases than I then I thought So yeah, there’s there’s no there’s a lot there’s there is a lot of a blogs and stuff about that. I think I find it fascinating. Yeah.

Jordan 49:11
I didn’t hear about that until today when you brought that up. But today, Yeah, sounds like a great idea for someone who wants to like very like, intentionally spend. Well, I like the idea of this for a year or two, if that’s the way like people are orchestrating it. So it’s like, I don’t want to live this way forever, but at least for this amount of time. Oh,

Rosanna 49:31
but I think it comes from the type of person who is looking at intentionality of their life and what they’re doing with their resources and how to better use their resources. And so one of the people that brought this to my attention was to live more frugally within her means because she realized she was spending excess so that she could do more with what she had for others and for herself through bigger experiences, or even building into her own business that she started that it was going to free up funds to let her put it back into

Jordan 49:59
the business to grow. I save a

Rosanna 50:00
lot of money. Yeah, so it’s just an interesting take on that. The other notion that I’ve seen come to light more frequently and friends of others are doing this where they’re basically kind of selling homes and possessions and getting an RV and committing to living in an RV for a year or two, seeking experiences touring the country seeing and living life and letting go of the stuff, which

Kasey 50:25
this is my dream. Your dream,

Rosanna 50:27
this is not my dream. And so I love hearing about it and like, like, I want to know more about it, but the thought of that even scares me a little bit, because that seems that seems extreme. But for a lot of people it is not.

Kasey 50:41
I think it I think it does seem extreme. I think I’m having a home makes people feel safe and secure. You know you’ve got a base and that’s where you that’s where you are where is if you’ve got to Then, sorry, I’m in Australia, there’s bugs flying around. When you’re in a van, it’s a lot, it feels a lot more temporary. So that that does cause that kind of feeling of uncertainty. But for some people that is a feeling of excitement and adventure, so totally Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think I think the way I try to keep my possessions is in preparation for when I will live in event or a tiny home is another and that’s another movement where you know, shipping container kind of home where you can only kind of have so many possessions in there.

Jordan 51:48
So let’s say someone is, you know, listening to this or just otherwise inspired to think a little bit more about decluttering and about taking on more minimalist lifestyle. What are some first steps you would recommend that that person take?

Kasey 52:05
And I mean, in way of things like resources or you know, books and whatnot to read or

Jordan 52:12
just add, yeah, actually, I want to talk about that. So both like if someone is like, Alright, I’m a minimalist now, what am I doing? Yeah, what are some of the first action points? Or maybe just the first things to think about before, you know, before they really dive into it? And then if they want to learn more, like Do you have any recommendations for other resources?

Kasey 52:30
I think, I think talking to other people who have have no experience to have become a minimalist or trying to live with less, I think that’s a really good way to start because they are the most kind of passionate and excited about it. So and they’ll tell you the truth about you know, the things that are difficult, like the family stuff and that kind of thing. I’m starting to take stock of what You have and I think, I think a kind of a call initially is a great idea. So to kind of think about what you have, and it’s not you don’t necessarily have to get rid of some stuff, but maybe the even the idea of putting it somewhere for a year and seeing if you use it in that year, and if you don’t use it in that year, what are the chances of you using it in the next year? I think that’s a really good way to start in terms of resources like the first book I ever read years and years ago was the joy of less by Francine J. I think her last name is and to me, it was just like ding ding ding like light bulbs going off. It was. I think I think the the message from that book that I still think about and uses as an example is the idea of memories and possessions. So you know, she was the one that made me think about if you If you don’t, wedding dresses are a prime example. I don’t have one. But I know a lot of women keep their wedding dress. If you don’t have your wedding dress, it doesn’t mean you didn’t get married, or have a wedding day, you’ve probably got hundreds of beautiful photos that will you know, that help you to remember what what the dress look like. And every time you see the dress, wherever it is, it probably makes you feel guilty about how much space it’s taking up or when or what you could be doing with that instead. So I guess that’s another thing to think about is you know, if you’ve got something that you you’re keeping, maybe does bring you a great deal of joy and every anniversary, you put it on and remember, well, that’s great, but I know that most people are probably not doing that and they’re probably feeling guilty when they you know when they see it in the space that it takes up. So those kinds of things to consider. There’s lots of lots of podcasts and blogs. At the minimalists have a Netflix documentary. And, you know, they write really interesting essays. And, and I have a podcast and Joshua Becker is another one that I really like is called becoming minimalist. And, and he doesn’t do, he talks a lot about kid he has talked a lot about minimalism, and kids and stuff like that as well. So, yeah.

Rosanna 55:26
We just did a one year test. So we moved into our current home about a year ago, and there was a box of stuff in the basement. And it was like a big box that like when we unpacked It was kind of like, I’m not sure what I’m gonna do with this. Do we keep doing that? So we said, All right. It’s in the basement. We don’t see it. We don’t look at it. If after a year, we haven’t

Jordan 55:45
used it. We can’t think of when we’re going to use right.

Rosanna 55:48
So we just purged a whole bunch of stuff that we thought all right. And we haven’t used it. It’s taken up space. We don’t need it and kind of just let that like looked at it as a memory and kind of you No, had that moment of reminiscing and then said goodbye.

Kasey 56:05
And well, that’s another another thing that people like a strategy that people have come up with, because we live in such a digital world, if you’ve got something that’s physical, but you’re like, Yeah, I don’t really want this, but I don’t want to forget that I had it, take a photo of it, you’ve still got the photo, you know, and then you can get rid of the thing. But I guess the other thing is, is not just about getting rid of stuff as well, because, you know, we don’t want to just have stuff in in landfill. So the most important thing is about bringing less in to your home, um, as the most important kind of starting factor. So don’t worry too much about what you have. And if you can, you know, repurpose or recycle or re gifted, you know, one men trash, another man’s treasure, that kind of thing. So just because you don’t have a use for it anymore, doesn’t mean that somebody else’s hasn’t been done. To find one of those,

Jordan 57:04
oh, we’re coming up towards the tail end of our conversation. Can you tell us if someone is interested in connecting with you or learning more about you and your work and positive psychology? Where can they go?

Kasey 57:17
Well, they could go to my website, which is Casey Lloyd calm. Or, you know, follow me on social. So I’m on Facebook and Instagram, and it’s at coach Casey Lloyd. And, you know, I’m not the best social media posting, I try and minimize that a little bit. I’m probably gonna try and get a little bit more active on there. But um, yeah, feel free, they can reach out and I’ve talking about this stuff. And, you know, I’m interested in coaching people around this kind of thing because I know it is a tricky thing to do, especially if you’re struggling to, um, you know, make those make the initial step into Living with less. I do have a little bit of an idea for a online course student actually show you my window. That’s my planning for my online course. On my post it notes. So, yeah, there’s that that possibly could be coming. So maybe keep an eye out for that.

Jordan 58:18
Awesome, great. Yeah. Well, I think we’ve learned a lot and that’s part of our even our desire in hosting a podcast is the excuse to have good conversations with one another and with knowledgeable people like yourself. And so it gives us a lot to just continue to, you know, just digest and reassess, really, our how we’re doing with things and making sure we’ve like in our shared taglines making life worth living.

Rosanna 58:49
Yeah, I like this idea of it being connected to well being and fulfillment and sustainability and joy like things that are not words

Jordan 58:57
we talk about enough. We talk about happiness But I like those words better.

Kasey 59:04
Yeah, well, it’s, you know, happiness isn’t emotion. So it’s fleeting. It doesn’t, it doesn’t. You can’t always feel happy. But you can always have meaning or you can, you know, have purpose. And, and so yeah, this is definitely more scope to talk about that kind of stuff for sure.

Rosanna 59:27
Thank you so much, Casey, it was such a pleasure speaking with you.

Kasey 59:30
Thanks for having me. Yeah.

Jordan 59:34
All right. Well, we hope you enjoyed our interview with Casey Lloyd, as much as we did. I felt like it was a privilege to be able to speak to an expert, who gave us think a great deal more understanding and helped us articulate maybe some of the inclinations and feelings that we’ve had about minimalism over the years.

Rosanna 59:56
Yeah, just getting a definition of it or working definition, seeing how it applies. in different areas of buying and purchasing and health and happiness, I think that’s a good way to help understand it in terms of our own lives.

Jordan 1:00:07
Yeah. So we were taking a lot of notes as we were, we were going in fact, I was impressed maybe it’s just my handwriting smaller, but rosianna wrote some significant amount of notes all over our papers here. And we were just learning a whole bunch from Casey. So we had a few takeaways that we just wanted to dialogue through a little bit, and maybe there’s even some more beyond that, that you enjoyed from the conversation as well. And we’d like to hear what impacted you. So that the first thing I wanted to bring up was something that she mentioned and we explore this a little bit sterner conversation is that I think we can be misled a little bit when we tell ourselves that we are pursuing happiness. And and that’s this core American phrase, the pursuit of happiness. But I think there’s this interesting contrast To between happiness and fulfillment, or happiness and well being, and it seems like happiness can be this feeling that we have, but it can be a very fleeting feeling. And we keep finding somewhat fleeting experiences like the purchase of an object to give us that little happiness spike, but it goes away almost as quickly as it arrives. You know what I’m saying?

Rosanna 1:01:26
Yeah, it doesn’t do anything for any kind of long term well being, it’s like, oh, new shoes. Mm hmm. You know, add them to the cart, they get delivered, you put them on, you know, they’re fresh. Mm hmm. And then, you know, a couple days a couple weeks later, it kind of

Jordan 1:01:40
wears itself out right. Once the newness wears off, so too does the feeling that came with that newness. Whereas maybe something more meaningful to pursue is fulfillment or well being and those are certainly terms that I’m going to be considering much more consistently now. But just for the sake of wondering like okay, if I am going to buy some thing or if I am going to add this object to my life in this way, in, in what manner will it end up impacting my well being? And maybe it is a practical item and I you know, of course, I’m not like totally anti consumerism, I

Rosanna 1:02:14
was gonna say we still need toilet paper. Yeah, so and you know, toothpaste and eat

Jordan 1:02:19
those things, right? So there’s a practicality to our consumer choices. But I think the bigger picture is just looking at the the way we live, and the things whether they’re objects or experiences or relationships. So you’re just about to fill in the blank with anything that we put in our lives. To what extent is that helping us pursue a feeling that really matters and I wouldn’t say happiness is that feeling I would say this contentment, or this well being, and sometimes it’s it’s fewer objects, sometimes it’s fewer things that we’re being inundated with, that would increase our feeling of fulfillment.

Rosanna 1:02:55
So just taking on more objects is not necessarily going to fulfill us,

Jordan 1:02:59
right. could even have the opposite impact. Gotcha. And so that really hit me. And another thing that stood out to because I felt this, but never really articulated it this way it was when she talked about our physical objects, not only occupying a physical space, but also occupying a mental space. And so the more objects we have, the more mental space is allocated towards,

Rosanna 1:03:28
you know, organizing, arranging, yeah,

Jordan 1:03:31
and just like understanding those objects and the more cluttered our life was and the more cluttered our mind was, as well. So there is a lot of value in kind of stripping down the objects being organized, getting rid of what you don’t need, because that increases our mental well being and increases maybe even the fulfillment and joy from the objects that we have, because we have more mental and emotional space for experiencing those things. Well, and

Rosanna 1:03:58
that just reminds me Like when I sit down at my desk to work, you ever, like sit down at your desk and there’s just like stuff strewn, it’s like the stuff that you don’t want to deal with the stuff you have to deal with, before I can ever work. Like, I have to, like, clear all that out, right? Like, and then I feel lighter. It’s like, Okay, I’ve got the garbage pile for the recycle.

Jordan 1:04:16
Everything was a nice add on to a to do list and Right,

Rosanna 1:04:18
right, and then it’s just like, I feel like I’m able to work it’s like, I need to get rid of that before I can then have the like mental space to like, create something or or start something

Jordan 1:04:27
right. And so that it takes away even from our creativity and our productivity because we’re spending so much time just organizing the stuff that we have. And I feel this way even with digital objects as well. And I don’t know if how you know how much this intersects with minimalism, but I think of feeling cluttered with my electronic documents or with my emails and right we’ve had these cameras so you laugh at me because I like I have to clear out the inbox and it just drives me nuts. But now I understand what that’s doing. I feel like it’s accurate. Pain, a certain capacity of my mental space. And I want to clear it out so I can feel like I can more focus Li work on what I need to. Yeah.

Rosanna 1:05:11
Well, and I think both of those things talking about happiness versus well being and then mental space and physical space, all gets to the root of one of the words that we always talk about. And that’s intentionality. So I think that if there’s some application for this, there’s some questions that we should ask ourselves in terms of our what are our intentions when we’re buying objects? So I think some of the things that we can ask ourselves is, are we cognizant of the relationship we have with obtaining objects? Like, why are we buying those objects? And I will be completely honest, like, there are times like when when I feel like things are like out of control, or I feel down or something like I want to buy something because like all of a sudden it like it does. It makes me feel happy for that moment. But I’m not considering like, long term like, what am I doing with this, like, sometimes even just buying those things feels good at the moment, but then when you Look at your you know your debit account or your credit card bill and you’re thinking I shouldn’t have done that, you know where it’s like what? I’m gonna feel good now but when I get the bill later I’m gonna feel horrible, right? So it’s like that intentionality like what is the relationship like why am I buying this? Like, am I doing this because I feel bad about something or I feel bogged down and so like I’m trying to like,

Jordan 1:06:19
Is there a practical necessity or you know, something like you’re buying something of quality that will last? So are you suggesting then that when we are when we’re making our purchases, whatever they are, that there’s a pre purchase process of just questioning and assessing what in the world we’re doing before we’re choosing to bring those things into our life.

Rosanna 1:06:40
Yeah, and not just purchasing like on the spot or on the fly? I am and I know a lot of people are like this, like I add things to my cart often and then I’ll let them sit there like so I get the thrill of shopping but I never really checkout right away because I continue to consider that purchase and then I consider that purchase against like maybe like the kids need shoes for back to So like, do I really need this because we’re going to be spending money on that. So it’s like, I kind of weigh those options. And so sometimes I look at them in my cart and drool over them. And like, you know, what if two weeks from now like, I still really think I need those or want those, or I’ve earned those because I’ve worked extra hours, then I will purchase that, but it’s, I’m thinking more about Do I really need it?

Jordan 1:07:20
Yeah, that’s Do I need it? Or do I want thoughtful I that’s, that’s my tattoo rule. Because if you want a tattoo, but I don’t know what the number of years I’ve said, like maybe two or three years, if you want the same tattoo two or three years from now, then it’s okay to go get it.

Rosanna 1:07:36
And you told me that when I was 30 and I was considering a tattoo, and I am now 37 and still do not have a tattoo because I can’t think of one thing that I want now that I may want like three years from now on my body so right

Jordan 1:07:48
no tattoos for me know my face on your back.

Rosanna 1:07:50
No, I love you, but I don’t want that. So that was the first question like what’s the relationship we have with obtaining the object? What’s the reason why what’s the purpose? And then even just thinking about does a large portion of our life revolve around tangible things, right? Like, am I? Am I a person who wants stuff for the sake of stuff like,

Jordan 1:08:11
well, it to an extent Yeah,

Rosanna 1:08:12
we all are right. But how do I I don’t know, how do I just be more intentional about is that is that the kind of person I want to be someone who just collects items.

Jordan 1:08:21
So it’s almost assessing your values first, like, here’s, here’s what I really want to be pursuing in life. Are these objects can be anywhere near that. Right?

Rosanna 1:08:30
Right. So you know, just thinking about that like asking yourself those questions like, if we’re fixated on the stuff, I think this just kind of sums up what you just put into words for me, how do we have room for our values, our visions and meanings that are bigger and deeper than the things we aspire to buy?

Jordan 1:08:50
Well, so what you aspire to buy could even get in the way of your values, right? If it’s cluttering your physical and your mental space Yeah. Okay, and then the stakes are high.

Rosanna 1:09:02
And I’m just getting really deep. And then that does really the second question that application and this is something that Casey spoke about. And it was, where are these things going to end up that we buy? I thought that was a really interesting question. And you know, we, I’m going to go back to like her thing with the kids, like, you know, we can say yes to like these little plastic junky toys for the kids. But we all know where those are ending up mom, the minute they turn around, like after a birthday party, and after all that stuff, like, we throw them away. So it’s like, why would I spend money on an object that I know that I’m just going to throw away? Or that’s going to clutter a landfill and clog up the environment? Like, are? Yeah. Are we really thinking through where this is going to end up?

Jordan 1:09:37
Yeah, I think it’s a thoughtful question. Because there’s kind of three phases to the object. There’s the one like before we have it, there’s a time while we have it, and then at some point, we’re not going to have that object. And it might be you know, when we die,

Rosanna 1:09:53
well, we’re Yeah, we’re not going to have the objects

Jordan 1:09:56
have it? Or we may choose to you know, just you know, Get rid of it by selling it or giving away or throwing it away at some point too. So I think that’s an important question to ask. But even while you have it, is this just going to end up being in a drawer? Or is this just going to end up taking up unnecessary space that I could use for some better purpose? And then eventually, what is the what is the final destination of this object? And when you picture it at its final destination, I think that adds a little bit more perspective of its current involvement in your life to kind of like when you picture your own, you know, not to be morbid, but you picture your own, like final destination. Right, it gives perspective to the time that you do have so maybe that’s, you know, I will always have this object but now during the time that it is in my life, what is the role that it plays?

Rosanna 1:10:45
Yeah, you want What is that? It’s kind of like a kind of a joke, like a more of a joke. Like, you can’t take it with you like, right, so what are you gonna do with that? Yeah, so I think those are just you know, what is your relationship to objects? You know, what portion of your life revolves around Those things, those handbags, those, you know, jewelry, clothing, shoes, or whatever it is, and then where are these things actually going to end up? Exactly. And that might sway you from buying things that you don’t need. So it’s all about the intentionality I think in front of it and the thoughtfulness going into a purchase. That’s good. So there’s a lot of questions that we can continue to ask ourselves. And I think for us, we’re going to evaluate and just seems like an ongoing process, right? Like, we’re gonna re evaluate our relationship to the objects that we have, as time goes on, as well, to make sure that we, we may never call ourselves minimalists per se, but at least asking the right questions may help us lead a more fulfilling life, right? Even though I like to shop and art, right.

Jordan 1:11:47
Alright, so we strongly encourage you to check out the show notes will where we’ll provide links for everything that you heard us enjoy talking about today. And we also strongly encourage you to To find Kacey Lloyd and she’s doing some incredible work and I think that you all will learn a lot more from her.

Rosanna 1:12:07
Well, this wraps up season two, Episode Three, and we will see you next week. Bye. Bye.

Jordan 1:12:15
Thanks so much for listening to today’s show. We hope you will use this conversation as a starting point for your own. We hope you’re encouraged to think and act more intentionally.

Rosanna 1:12:24
If you want to learn more, you can visit our website, the relentless pursuit podcast comm where you can find notes on today’s show, plus additional blog posts, and you can subscribe to our free members list.

Jordan 1:12:36
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Rosanna 1:12:40
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Jordan 1:12:49
Until next time, let us know how you are taking life off

Rosanna 1:12:52
autopilot and relentlessly pursuing what matters